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[Music]

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all right and welcome my guest

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now is that dr david clark i've actually

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seen him on various ufo related

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tv programs for many years um and i do

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believe this will be an interesting show

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i encourage everyone to read his very

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extensive bio

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it's really quite amazing all he's been

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involved in

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just briefly i will tell you he's an

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associate professor

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in the department of media arts and

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communication

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school of social sciences at sheffield

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hallam university

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in the uk his research

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interests include investigative

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journalism

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the freedom of information act for you

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official secrets censorship and media

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law since the late

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1990s much of david's research has been

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concentrated on british government

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policy toward

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ufos uaps and other unexplained

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phenomena

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and again i suggest that you uh check

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out

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uh we're going to be actually talking

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about some files too that uh

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uh historical files which i think is

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fascinating but without further ado

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i will bring david in welcome to the

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show david yeah well thanks for inviting

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me

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yeah so i i think i'm going to start out

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by asking you

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uh because you you're kind of what i

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consider a healthy skeptic on the topic

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but it's also your study so what what

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gets you interested

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oh and and by the way uh for those of

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you on youtube uh check out the poster

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behind them 1956

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ufo uh movie yeah that's a great poster

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that's the original

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i'd like to buy that from you we'll work

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out a deal

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just kidding um but can you tell the

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audience

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uh how you began your interest in the

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topic of ufos

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well many people in childhood i think it

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began you know um i i

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was um i was watched all the tv programs

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that everyone else watched and i think

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he was going to see

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close encounters of the third kind the

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spielberg movie at my local um

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cinema which was to be 1978

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um but i was interested in in the

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subject before that and not just ufos

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you know

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the whole sort of ancient astronauts

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thing i was i bought all the

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um the paperbacks that you could buy

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back then you know chariots of the gods

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um

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the bermuda triangle all those sorts of

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things and it just blew my mind and it

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was

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along with comic books and spider-man

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and

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you know the usual things but you see i

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put all that aside

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that was like childhood and if i went

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got

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um did a degree you know

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in archaeology that was that was the

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direction i went in

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and i ended up back in working as a

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journalist

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and doing investigative journalism and

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this was during the period when the

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subject

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you know sort of had its revival you

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know around the what was it the 40th

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50th anniversary i forget now of um

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roswell

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and 19 mid 1990s you know and then there

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was the

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the interest in the x-files um

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and at that time um we had these

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horrendous

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secrecy rules in the uk where we had to

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wait decades and decades to see

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government documents and then tony blair

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um who became prime minister in 1997 he

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was the first

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um uh prime minister who said right you

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know we've had

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secrecy for too long and we need to have

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a freedom of information act so he

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brought in a freedom of information act

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whilst i was working

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as a newspaper journalist and i remember

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at the time very distinctly my editor

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saying

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this is a really big deal you know we

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need to as journalists get behind this

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and

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to find a subject

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you know that you can you can use the

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foi to sort of discover more about it

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you know

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and immediately i just thought well ufos

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has got to be

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the thing that i i should i need to

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follow up because as a teenager

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um when i was doing my ufo

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investigations as a sort of an 18 19

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year old i remembered writing to

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the person who was the head of the um

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supposedly the head of the ufo desk at

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the minister of defense

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this was a chat called clive neville and

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i got into quite a conversation with him

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this is

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i don't know mid-1980s and i just

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thought what a weird thing that this

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this person is sort of writing to me a

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teenager

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at the time about this subject so

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i knew that they had um lots and lots of

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files on the subject

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and i knew that like for example the

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rendlesham forest incident was it

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a huge course celebra um of the subject

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you know the british equivalent of

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roswell and it

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and so when we got freedom of

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information i just thought well isn't it

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about time that someone

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actually tried to find out how much

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material

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they are actually holding and what what

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it amounts to

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so that's really how i sort of

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got involved in the late 1990s and it

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all sort of spiraled from there

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now when you when you talk about the uh

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foyer when it first

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became enacted um was it pretty cut and

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dry how you could apply

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for documents or was it did you have to

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jump through hoops to get it

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yeah well it's i've tried to simplify it

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there because

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what what we actually had was we had a

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freedom of information act

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even before the official one arrived

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because

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from around 1994 the the prime minister

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before tony blair which was john major

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he was the prime minister between

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margaret thatcher and tony blair

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he sort of introdu introduced like a

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halfway house for freedom of information

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whereby

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journalists and historians if they were

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interested in a certain topic

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could write to a central government

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department and say could you tell us

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what you have on this subject

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and is there any chance that i could see

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it and you know if if they were

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feeling helpful on that particular day

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they might they might get back to you

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and i hit payday straight away with this

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because

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i think it was around 2000 um i wrote

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two

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to them this is so we didn't get an

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official freedom of information

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act until the 1st of january 2005

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but i started writing to them in the

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late 1990s

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and around 2000 and the first thing i

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went for was

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the rendelsham um file because i knew

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although you see before then if you

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wrote to them and said what have you got

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on this particular ufo incident they'd

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just say well

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we've got files but we don't have we

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can't share them with you because

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you know this is personal information in

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them from the people who've reported

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these things that we have to protect

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data protection act etc etc um

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but they found it more and more

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difficult to stonewall

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um by the time we got to around the year

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2000 so

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i'd heard lots of people speculating

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about what's in this rendulchamp file

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and what do they know about this

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incident

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and well i just said well has anyone

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actually tried to act ask them

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officially with one of these requests no

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one it seemed had

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so i just sent a a formal request

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and i never expected that anything would

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happen but lo and behold

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suddenly the you know i had a large

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package arrived with the 200 pages of

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the rentals from file

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here it was jeez wow 200 pages

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yeah but but the thing is about that

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most of it was just letters

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previous letters from members of the

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public who'd written in

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asking about the incident from sort of

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1983 when it when it first

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came out in the media you know the news

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of the world story that first broke it

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with colonel holt's memo

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so um all that's in the file

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is colonel hall's memo the covering note

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from the british base commander and then

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a big long series of letters from

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members of the public and the press

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so it sounds impressive say 180 pages or

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whatever

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but 178 pages of that

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was not really of much interest but the

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but what what the desk officer did

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to be helpful she actually went back

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to the original files that covered that

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period of time from 1980 and 1981

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and these have since been released and

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they're absolutely enormous you know

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thousands of pages and she went through

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this and she found everything that was

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additional in those files that related

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to the case photocopied them

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and put them into the file that was

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released to me now

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if there's a cover-up going on why why

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on earth would you go to such

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trouble to to help someone hmm

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yeah interesting now if if i remember

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right uh correct me if i'm wrong

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but didn't uh charles halt have the

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wrong date

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on that memo yeah yeah which caused the

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trouble with the radar um

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radar reports and all that yeah this

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this is the this is the problem that

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bedeviled this case

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right from the very beginning that um

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the all the dates and the times in his

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original memo was

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were wrong that's the bottom line and

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he's admitted this i mean he didn't

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write the memo himself he dictated it to

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someone else

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and this got sent off to the and he only

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did this on the prompting of donald

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morland

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who was the british liaison officer he

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was on holiday on christmas holidays

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in scotland i think he was i interviewed

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him um

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at the time when the incident happened

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and and uh halt didn't actually

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officially

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notify the ministry of defense in london

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and he waited for donald morland to come

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back and this must have been like a

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couple of weeks after

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the incidents now that in itself doesn't

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suggest to me

286
00:10:15,269 --> 00:10:13,360
that he treated it with any degree of

287
00:10:18,550 --> 00:10:15,279
urgency in the way that he claims

288
00:10:20,310 --> 00:10:18,560
he did now so being an investigative

289
00:10:21,509 --> 00:10:20,320
journalist and someone that has to apply

290
00:10:23,750 --> 00:10:21,519
sort of critical

291
00:10:25,350 --> 00:10:23,760
faculties to stories that i'm dealing

292
00:10:26,949 --> 00:10:25,360
with every day i just thought there was

293
00:10:28,150 --> 00:10:26,959
something odd about this right from the

294
00:10:30,550 --> 00:10:28,160
very beginning

295
00:10:31,509 --> 00:10:30,560
and at the end of the day you have to

296
00:10:33,590 --> 00:10:31,519
rely

297
00:10:35,750 --> 00:10:33,600
if you're doing archive work and you're

298
00:10:37,750 --> 00:10:35,760
working as a historian on the original

299
00:10:39,430 --> 00:10:37,760
documents on the paper trail

300
00:10:41,190 --> 00:10:39,440
and the paper trail is really really

301
00:10:44,710 --> 00:10:41,200
clear um

302
00:10:46,949 --> 00:10:44,720
it does say that colonel hall

303
00:10:48,870 --> 00:10:46,959
contacted the raf whilst he was actually

304
00:10:51,030 --> 00:10:48,880
in the forest looking at these lights

305
00:10:52,150 --> 00:10:51,040
and there's actually a memo in the um

306
00:10:54,150 --> 00:10:52,160
the file from the

307
00:10:56,310 --> 00:10:54,160
the radar station the commander of the

308
00:10:58,630 --> 00:10:56,320
radar station raf watan

309
00:11:00,069 --> 00:10:58,640
saying yes we were contacted by um

310
00:11:02,069 --> 00:11:00,079
bentwater's tower

311
00:11:04,870 --> 00:11:02,079
at such and such a time we looked at our

312
00:11:06,630 --> 00:11:04,880
radar picture and nothing was visible

313
00:11:07,990 --> 00:11:06,640
and that's the contemporary document in

314
00:11:10,790 --> 00:11:08,000
the file and

315
00:11:12,150 --> 00:11:10,800
from the name on the document i was able

316
00:11:14,230 --> 00:11:12,160
to track down this

317
00:11:16,069 --> 00:11:14,240
exact the person who wrote the memo

318
00:11:16,710 --> 00:11:16,079
who's still alive a guy called derrick

319
00:11:18,310 --> 00:11:16,720
coombe

320
00:11:20,150 --> 00:11:18,320
remembers the incident very well and he

321
00:11:22,310 --> 00:11:20,160
remembers sitting in his control room

322
00:11:23,750 --> 00:11:22,320
looking at the radar picture

323
00:11:25,430 --> 00:11:23,760
two or three calls coming through that

324
00:11:26,470 --> 00:11:25,440
were patched through from ben waters

325
00:11:28,710 --> 00:11:26,480
obviously

326
00:11:30,310 --> 00:11:28,720
um colonel hall talking to ben waters

327
00:11:31,910 --> 00:11:30,320
tower bent water tower patching it

328
00:11:34,550 --> 00:11:31,920
through to raf1

329
00:11:35,990 --> 00:11:34,560
and he was saying i can see these things

330
00:11:37,590 --> 00:11:36,000
in the sky over and from forest can you

331
00:11:39,829 --> 00:11:37,600
see anything on the radar picture

332
00:11:41,750 --> 00:11:39,839
and they looked again and again and

333
00:11:43,509 --> 00:11:41,760
again nothing there now i know there's

334
00:11:45,829 --> 00:11:43,519
all these stories that have come out

335
00:11:47,509 --> 00:11:45,839
subsequently saying uh people coming

336
00:11:48,310 --> 00:11:47,519
forward saying they did see something on

337
00:11:50,230 --> 00:11:48,320
radar

338
00:11:51,990 --> 00:11:50,240
yeah they were just in uh the phenomenon

339
00:11:53,910 --> 00:11:52,000
movie did you have to watch that

340
00:11:55,590 --> 00:11:53,920
yeah i haven't seen it no but i'm aware

341
00:11:55,990 --> 00:11:55,600
that there are people who have surfaced

342
00:12:00,470 --> 00:11:56,000
in

343
00:12:02,470 --> 00:12:00,480
picture but

344
00:12:04,710 --> 00:12:02,480
that may well be so but there's no

345
00:12:06,790 --> 00:12:04,720
documentation from 1980 that

346
00:12:07,750 --> 00:12:06,800
that prove that corroborates what

347
00:12:10,710 --> 00:12:07,760
they're saying

348
00:12:12,150 --> 00:12:10,720
but there is documentation from 1980

349
00:12:13,829 --> 00:12:12,160
that corroborates what derrick coon's

350
00:12:16,790 --> 00:12:13,839
saying

351
00:12:19,030 --> 00:12:16,800
i see because that to me is evidence

352
00:12:20,310 --> 00:12:19,040
whereas what someone says 20 30 years

353
00:12:22,069 --> 00:12:20,320
after the event

354
00:12:24,150 --> 00:12:22,079
how do they know they're even talking

355
00:12:25,829 --> 00:12:24,160
about the same night

356
00:12:27,509 --> 00:12:25,839
there are so many different ufo

357
00:12:29,829 --> 00:12:27,519
incidents that happened

358
00:12:30,710 --> 00:12:29,839
in that area don't forget there wasn't

359
00:12:32,310 --> 00:12:30,720
one incident

360
00:12:34,230 --> 00:12:32,320
you're talking about dozens of different

361
00:12:35,829 --> 00:12:34,240
incidents not just around the christmas

362
00:12:38,870 --> 00:12:35,839
of 1980 but

363
00:12:40,150 --> 00:12:38,880
on other other years and other months

364
00:12:41,990 --> 00:12:40,160
i mean the number of people that have

365
00:12:43,190 --> 00:12:42,000
contacted me over the last 30 years

366
00:12:44,550 --> 00:12:43,200
saying they were involved in the

367
00:12:46,069 --> 00:12:44,560
rendlesham incident

368
00:12:48,470 --> 00:12:46,079
and when i've interviewed them and got

369
00:12:50,389 --> 00:12:48,480
to the tried to try to pare it down did

370
00:12:51,990 --> 00:12:50,399
you make a note in your diary i didn't

371
00:12:55,509 --> 00:12:52,000
have a diary well how do you know that

372
00:12:57,350 --> 00:12:55,519
it happened in 1980 then i'm sorry but

373
00:12:59,030 --> 00:12:57,360
that kind of evidence is not evidence

374
00:13:01,750 --> 00:12:59,040
it's anecdote

375
00:13:04,230 --> 00:13:01,760
well i tell you you just made it though

376
00:13:07,670 --> 00:13:04,240
just now you just made a very good point

377
00:13:09,910 --> 00:13:07,680
and that there's ongoing and has been

378
00:13:11,829 --> 00:13:09,920
there's whatever it is is going on there

379
00:13:14,230 --> 00:13:11,839
it's been going on a long time

380
00:13:15,190 --> 00:13:14,240
it's before and after because one of the

381
00:13:16,550 --> 00:13:15,200
things i did

382
00:13:18,230 --> 00:13:16,560
during my research of the national

383
00:13:20,069 --> 00:13:18,240
archives i went through the raf

384
00:13:23,910 --> 00:13:20,079
bentwater's base log

385
00:13:26,870 --> 00:13:23,920
right back to the 1930s and it was um

386
00:13:28,230 --> 00:13:26,880
it was a it was an raf base in 1946 and

387
00:13:32,069 --> 00:13:28,240
i found an entry in the

388
00:13:34,150 --> 00:13:32,079
in the um the log from 1946 virtually

389
00:13:36,269 --> 00:13:34,160
almost like a rerun of the rendelstrom

390
00:13:39,829 --> 00:13:36,279
incident with 1946

391
00:13:41,590 --> 00:13:39,839
1946 december yeah um there was a report

392
00:13:42,710 --> 00:13:41,600
of what they thought was an aircraft

393
00:13:45,189 --> 00:13:42,720
crashing

394
00:13:47,350 --> 00:13:45,199
into the sea off rendlesham forest

395
00:13:49,269 --> 00:13:47,360
reported from ben waters tower

396
00:13:50,949 --> 00:13:49,279
um search parties went out to look for

397
00:13:53,189 --> 00:13:50,959
it couldn't find anything but a big sort

398
00:13:56,230 --> 00:13:53,199
of light in the sky over the forest

399
00:13:57,509 --> 00:13:56,240
renders from forest incident 1946 isn't

400
00:13:59,990 --> 00:13:57,519
that something

401
00:14:01,430 --> 00:14:00,000
and and from what i understand um

402
00:14:04,870 --> 00:14:01,440
there's

403
00:14:07,670 --> 00:14:04,880
of weird

404
00:14:08,470 --> 00:14:07,680
you know even cryptoids and or whatever

405
00:14:10,870 --> 00:14:08,480
you call them

406
00:14:11,670 --> 00:14:10,880
yeah i mean it's it's britain's area 51

407
00:14:14,790 --> 00:14:11,680
rental from

408
00:14:17,350 --> 00:14:14,800
foreign no doubt about it yeah have you

409
00:14:17,990 --> 00:14:17,360
visited the area yourself yeah many

410
00:14:19,829 --> 00:14:18,000
times yeah

411
00:14:22,230 --> 00:14:19,839
you know i've been out at night i've

412
00:14:23,910 --> 00:14:22,240
seen the um the fabled lighthouse that

413
00:14:26,230 --> 00:14:23,920
i'm i've been told

414
00:14:27,750 --> 00:14:26,240
um you can't see from the forest i mean

415
00:14:30,790 --> 00:14:27,760
you can't see it any longer because it's

416
00:14:32,790 --> 00:14:30,800
fallen into the sea now

417
00:14:36,150 --> 00:14:32,800
but at the time i visited which was i

418
00:14:38,790 --> 00:14:36,160
think 2005 and again in 2007 it was

419
00:14:40,310 --> 00:14:38,800
very prominent and um it's all right

420
00:14:41,910 --> 00:14:40,320
people saying oh well you know you

421
00:14:43,990 --> 00:14:41,920
wouldn't mistake a lighthouse for

422
00:14:46,230 --> 00:14:44,000
something that you'd

423
00:14:48,310 --> 00:14:46,240
like a ufo but i mean i've heard this so

424
00:14:50,069 --> 00:14:48,320
many times people say no no you

425
00:14:52,230 --> 00:14:50,079
people couldn't mistake something for

426
00:14:54,790 --> 00:14:52,240
something that is unusual but

427
00:14:56,150 --> 00:14:54,800
we know from the history of ufology that

428
00:14:59,189 --> 00:14:56,160
90

429
00:15:01,670 --> 00:14:59,199
95 of reported sightings

430
00:15:02,710 --> 00:15:01,680
when they're investigated and nearer the

431
00:15:04,870 --> 00:15:02,720
time that they've happened

432
00:15:05,829 --> 00:15:04,880
turn out to be ordinary things seen

433
00:15:07,829 --> 00:15:05,839
sometimes

434
00:15:09,990 --> 00:15:07,839
it's usually ordinary things seen in

435
00:15:12,069 --> 00:15:10,000
extraordinary circumstances

436
00:15:14,310 --> 00:15:12,079
and extraordinary things seen in

437
00:15:16,389 --> 00:15:14,320
ordinary circumstances

438
00:15:18,790 --> 00:15:16,399
interesting well i i would have to say

439
00:15:22,069 --> 00:15:18,800
this about the lighthouse myself

440
00:15:25,030 --> 00:15:22,079
is that uh they couldn't have been

441
00:15:26,870 --> 00:15:25,040
like not used to seeing the lighthouse

442
00:15:27,670 --> 00:15:26,880
you know they it was something happening

443
00:15:31,990 --> 00:15:27,680
every

444
00:15:35,189 --> 00:15:32,000
the light or

445
00:15:36,710 --> 00:15:35,199
well no because the lighthouse is only

446
00:15:38,310 --> 00:15:36,720
visible from certain part

447
00:15:40,069 --> 00:15:38,320
or was only visible at the time we're

448
00:15:42,470 --> 00:15:40,079
talking about from certain parts

449
00:15:44,230 --> 00:15:42,480
of the forest now vince thurkettle who

450
00:15:45,749 --> 00:15:44,240
was a member of the forestry commission

451
00:15:47,430 --> 00:15:45,759
he actually lived

452
00:15:49,030 --> 00:15:47,440
in the forest at the time and he's the

453
00:15:50,150 --> 00:15:49,040
whoop he's the person who actually first

454
00:15:52,069 --> 00:15:50,160
suggested

455
00:15:53,189 --> 00:15:52,079
that the lighthouse was what the airmen

456
00:15:55,749 --> 00:15:53,199
had seen

457
00:15:57,110 --> 00:15:55,759
and well i've had long discussions with

458
00:15:59,030 --> 00:15:57,120
him i've been out walking with him in

459
00:16:00,949 --> 00:15:59,040
the forest and he said

460
00:16:03,590 --> 00:16:00,959
although he was living there at the time

461
00:16:05,670 --> 00:16:03,600
in a house in the middle of the forest

462
00:16:07,430 --> 00:16:05,680
he used to go out regularly running and

463
00:16:08,870 --> 00:16:07,440
jogging through the forest on these long

464
00:16:09,990 --> 00:16:08,880
trails and there's been a couple of

465
00:16:11,350 --> 00:16:10,000
occasions

466
00:16:13,430 --> 00:16:11,360
where he was jogging down one of the

467
00:16:13,990 --> 00:16:13,440
trails and he saw a light coming towards

468
00:16:15,829 --> 00:16:14,000
him

469
00:16:17,110 --> 00:16:15,839
and he thought what is that on one

470
00:16:18,470 --> 00:16:17,120
occasion

471
00:16:20,150 --> 00:16:18,480
fell on the ground thinking it was

472
00:16:23,509 --> 00:16:20,160
poachers with lanterns

473
00:16:25,030 --> 00:16:23,519
and it was only after um getting himself

474
00:16:25,590 --> 00:16:25,040
together thinking what is what have i

475
00:16:27,990 --> 00:16:25,600
just seen

476
00:16:29,670 --> 00:16:28,000
he realized it was the beam of the

477
00:16:31,829 --> 00:16:29,680
lighthouse that was flashing

478
00:16:33,590 --> 00:16:31,839
over the over the trail and if you read

479
00:16:36,310 --> 00:16:33,600
the original statements from the

480
00:16:37,829 --> 00:16:36,320
um the uh the rendlesham uh the people

481
00:16:39,189 --> 00:16:37,839
involved in the original rendlesham

482
00:16:41,110 --> 00:16:39,199
incident they say

483
00:16:42,230 --> 00:16:41,120
that they responded to a report of what

484
00:16:44,069 --> 00:16:42,240
they thought was a um

485
00:16:45,910 --> 00:16:44,079
an aircraft crashing into the forest we

486
00:16:46,870 --> 00:16:45,920
know what that was that was a bolide

487
00:16:48,710 --> 00:16:46,880
meteor

488
00:16:51,030 --> 00:16:48,720
because we've got the exact timing of it

489
00:16:52,629 --> 00:16:51,040
at exactly the time that they reported

490
00:16:54,230 --> 00:16:52,639
this thing dropping into the forest

491
00:16:55,590 --> 00:16:54,240
they go into the forest they can't see

492
00:16:56,230 --> 00:16:55,600
anything odd when they go into the

493
00:16:58,550 --> 00:16:56,240
forest

494
00:17:00,310 --> 00:16:58,560
then they see a flashing light they

495
00:17:01,829 --> 00:17:00,320
follow the flashing light and then in

496
00:17:03,990 --> 00:17:01,839
their own words

497
00:17:05,270 --> 00:17:04,000
three hours later they identify it as a

498
00:17:06,870 --> 00:17:05,280
lighthouse

499
00:17:08,710 --> 00:17:06,880
well let me see let me just let me ask

500
00:17:10,390 --> 00:17:08,720
you if they knew

501
00:17:11,750 --> 00:17:10,400
if they saw the lighthouse all the time

502
00:17:13,189 --> 00:17:11,760
and they knew what it was how did it

503
00:17:13,990 --> 00:17:13,199
take three hours walking through a

504
00:17:16,710 --> 00:17:14,000
forest

505
00:17:19,110 --> 00:17:16,720
to identify it as a lighthouse yeah well

506
00:17:22,390 --> 00:17:19,120
let me just ask you this um

507
00:17:25,189 --> 00:17:22,400
i've talked to charles hall in person

508
00:17:26,390 --> 00:17:25,199
and uh and had him on the show a number

509
00:17:29,669 --> 00:17:26,400
of times

510
00:17:32,549 --> 00:17:29,679
uh to me he seems extremely credible

511
00:17:33,669 --> 00:17:32,559
and when he sees what looked like almost

512
00:17:36,630 --> 00:17:33,679
like an eyeball

513
00:17:38,310 --> 00:17:36,640
kind of you know bouncing between trees

514
00:17:40,070 --> 00:17:38,320
in the woods and dripping some type of

515
00:17:41,990 --> 00:17:40,080
like magna type of thing

516
00:17:44,230 --> 00:17:42,000
and then bursts into five lights i mean

517
00:17:47,669 --> 00:17:44,240
that's such a spectacular story

518
00:17:50,630 --> 00:17:47,679
do you think that was other than i mean

519
00:17:52,070 --> 00:17:50,640
i'm not saying i know what it is or he

520
00:17:55,110 --> 00:17:52,080
knew what it was but

521
00:17:56,390 --> 00:17:55,120
do you think his story is wrong

522
00:17:57,750 --> 00:17:56,400
no i don't think he's wrong at all i

523
00:17:59,270 --> 00:17:57,760
think he's i think he's telling the

524
00:18:01,510 --> 00:17:59,280
truth about what he saw

525
00:18:02,630 --> 00:18:01,520
what i'm disputing is what it was that

526
00:18:04,630 --> 00:18:02,640
he saw

527
00:18:07,029 --> 00:18:04,640
because what i'm saying is if you if you

528
00:18:09,029 --> 00:18:07,039
can be so easily misled

529
00:18:10,549 --> 00:18:09,039
into thinking something is something

530
00:18:12,150 --> 00:18:10,559
extraordinary when it's something that's

531
00:18:15,350 --> 00:18:12,160
ordinary how can you believe

532
00:18:17,270 --> 00:18:15,360
anything in terms of someone's i mean

533
00:18:19,190 --> 00:18:17,280
let's think about the context in which

534
00:18:21,350 --> 00:18:19,200
he was seeing what he was seeing

535
00:18:22,630 --> 00:18:21,360
he wasn't in a scientific laboratory was

536
00:18:24,870 --> 00:18:22,640
it with with cameras

537
00:18:26,070 --> 00:18:24,880
and with monitoring equipment he was in

538
00:18:27,510 --> 00:18:26,080
a dark forest

539
00:18:29,270 --> 00:18:27,520
in the middle of the night in an

540
00:18:32,070 --> 00:18:29,280
unfamiliar area

541
00:18:33,669 --> 00:18:32,080
um with a bunch of excitable people

542
00:18:35,110 --> 00:18:33,679
surrounding him who was sort of almost

543
00:18:37,350 --> 00:18:35,120
like egging him on

544
00:18:38,950 --> 00:18:37,360
if you listen to the tape here it is sir

545
00:18:41,430 --> 00:18:38,960
there it is in the distance

546
00:18:43,350 --> 00:18:41,440
it's not a scientific context in which

547
00:18:46,390 --> 00:18:43,360
he's seen what he's seeing is he

548
00:18:48,310 --> 00:18:46,400
so how on how can we know what it was

549
00:18:49,830 --> 00:18:48,320
i wouldn't even try and hazard a guess

550
00:18:51,750 --> 00:18:49,840
at what it was but

551
00:18:53,590 --> 00:18:51,760
all we know is that there was a

552
00:18:54,870 --> 00:18:53,600
lighthouse in the direction that he was

553
00:18:57,669 --> 00:18:54,880
looking

554
00:18:59,350 --> 00:18:57,679
and nowhere on that tape does he say and

555
00:19:01,110 --> 00:18:59,360
i challenge anyone listening to this to

556
00:19:03,510 --> 00:19:01,120
find me a reference on that tape

557
00:19:04,789 --> 00:19:03,520
to anyone saying look sir there is the

558
00:19:08,310 --> 00:19:04,799
lighthouse

559
00:19:09,750 --> 00:19:08,320
so what he saw it may have been

560
00:19:11,669 --> 00:19:09,760
something unusual it may have been

561
00:19:15,110 --> 00:19:11,679
something inexplicable i don't know

562
00:19:18,070 --> 00:19:15,120
but all i can say is if you um look at

563
00:19:19,669 --> 00:19:18,080
look at there is an actual timed um a

564
00:19:22,230 --> 00:19:19,679
recording with vince cur

565
00:19:24,549 --> 00:19:22,240
thurkettle standing with a bbc film crew

566
00:19:26,390 --> 00:19:24,559
and you can see the lighthouse flashing

567
00:19:28,470 --> 00:19:26,400
in the distance if you look at that and

568
00:19:29,350 --> 00:19:28,480
then you play hulk's tape the bit where

569
00:19:31,990 --> 00:19:29,360
he says

570
00:19:33,909 --> 00:19:32,000
there it is again there it is again it's

571
00:19:35,510 --> 00:19:33,919
exactly the same timing as the

572
00:19:39,430 --> 00:19:35,520
lighthouse flashing

573
00:19:41,909 --> 00:19:39,440
now if we apply occam's razor to this

574
00:19:44,230 --> 00:19:41,919
right um you've got two options you've

575
00:19:46,310 --> 00:19:44,240
got a possibility that aliens traveled

576
00:19:47,510 --> 00:19:46,320
zillions of miles across the universe to

577
00:19:49,590 --> 00:19:47,520
appear over

578
00:19:51,110 --> 00:19:49,600
endless forest on the same night that

579
00:19:53,430 --> 00:19:51,120
turtle holt was there

580
00:19:54,630 --> 00:19:53,440
or the possibility that colonel hull saw

581
00:19:55,750 --> 00:19:54,640
a lighthouse and thought it was

582
00:19:58,070 --> 00:19:55,760
something unusual

583
00:19:59,750 --> 00:19:58,080
what's the most likely explanation well

584
00:20:02,549 --> 00:19:59,760
that's kind of two extremes

585
00:20:03,990 --> 00:20:02,559
um in my opinion uh yeah well i'm being

586
00:20:08,070 --> 00:20:04,000
rebels advocate here

587
00:20:10,390 --> 00:20:08,080
yeah uh well for one thing when he is uh

588
00:20:11,110 --> 00:20:10,400
when this thing is over his head and

589
00:20:13,190 --> 00:20:11,120
then

590
00:20:15,110 --> 00:20:13,200
they see this thing over his head and

591
00:20:17,510 --> 00:20:15,120
then the down comes

592
00:20:18,310 --> 00:20:17,520
down toward his feet comes this beam of

593
00:20:19,750 --> 00:20:18,320
light

594
00:20:21,350 --> 00:20:19,760
shining on the ground that doesn't

595
00:20:24,070 --> 00:20:21,360
really look like normal light

596
00:20:24,470 --> 00:20:24,080
um this is how he's described it to me

597
00:20:26,549 --> 00:20:24,480
um

598
00:20:27,510 --> 00:20:26,559
there's well what would stop you there

599
00:20:29,350 --> 00:20:27,520
is if you look at

600
00:20:31,190 --> 00:20:29,360
the the parrot the third paragraph in

601
00:20:31,750 --> 00:20:31,200
his memory what happened later that

602
00:20:33,750 --> 00:20:31,760
night

603
00:20:35,270 --> 00:20:33,760
just to put this in perspective he talks

604
00:20:38,070 --> 00:20:35,280
about going out further on

605
00:20:38,549 --> 00:20:38,080
into the forest and seeing lights in the

606
00:20:40,710 --> 00:20:38,559
sky

607
00:20:41,909 --> 00:20:40,720
that he thinks are unusual lights that

608
00:20:44,789 --> 00:20:41,919
are there for hours

609
00:20:46,310 --> 00:20:44,799
that never move quite clearly stars

610
00:20:48,310 --> 00:20:46,320
there's no doubt about it

611
00:20:49,350 --> 00:20:48,320
and yet he thought there was something

612
00:20:51,830 --> 00:20:49,360
unusual i mean

613
00:20:53,590 --> 00:20:51,840
a light in the sky over suffolk that

614
00:20:56,630 --> 00:20:53,600
doesn't move for several hours

615
00:20:58,149 --> 00:20:56,640
is not a ufo if if it was a ufo

616
00:21:00,630 --> 00:20:58,159
there's thousands of people who live in

617
00:21:02,549 --> 00:21:00,640
the the town of ipswich only a few miles

618
00:21:04,870 --> 00:21:02,559
away how come there's only colonel hall

619
00:21:07,909 --> 00:21:04,880
seeing it

620
00:21:09,350 --> 00:21:07,919
um well uh

621
00:21:11,430 --> 00:21:09,360
i know there's i was just seeing if

622
00:21:11,990 --> 00:21:11,440
there's anyone up there that uh in chat

623
00:21:15,350 --> 00:21:12,000
that had

624
00:21:18,789 --> 00:21:15,360
something to come back with this um

625
00:21:19,510 --> 00:21:18,799
on this this this case i i do think has

626
00:21:22,549 --> 00:21:19,520
been

627
00:21:25,590 --> 00:21:22,559
very convoluted between the people

628
00:21:29,110 --> 00:21:25,600
there's been infighting and all that but

629
00:21:30,710 --> 00:21:29,120
um i there's just nothing that makes me

630
00:21:31,669 --> 00:21:30,720
feel as though it's a possibility that

631
00:21:35,029 --> 00:21:31,679
was a lighthouse

632
00:21:37,669 --> 00:21:35,039
i mean myself um i'm not saying

633
00:21:39,110 --> 00:21:37,679
it's aliens i don't know if it's aliens

634
00:21:40,630 --> 00:21:39,120
or whatever it was

635
00:21:42,390 --> 00:21:40,640
i've been i've been deliberately

636
00:21:44,470 --> 00:21:42,400
provocative i've got to say

637
00:21:46,230 --> 00:21:44,480
that i just think there's a lot of

638
00:21:47,830 --> 00:21:46,240
people who think they know about this

639
00:21:49,750 --> 00:21:47,840
case but they don't really because

640
00:21:50,950 --> 00:21:49,760
they've never been to the location and i

641
00:21:52,710 --> 00:21:50,960
think there is this

642
00:21:55,110 --> 00:21:52,720
this thing about because these military

643
00:21:56,710 --> 00:21:55,120
people involved that they can't possibly

644
00:21:59,270 --> 00:21:56,720
have made a mistake

645
00:22:01,430 --> 00:21:59,280
now we don't we know that military

646
00:22:03,110 --> 00:22:01,440
personnel make mistakes all the time

647
00:22:05,430 --> 00:22:03,120
so why should it be any different with

648
00:22:08,549 --> 00:22:05,440
ufos i i don't understand

649
00:22:10,230 --> 00:22:08,559
how the social standing of a person and

650
00:22:10,870 --> 00:22:10,240
how many stripes they've got on their

651
00:22:13,270 --> 00:22:10,880
arm

652
00:22:15,350 --> 00:22:13,280
somehow we've turned them into whit

653
00:22:17,590 --> 00:22:15,360
people who we can rely upon

654
00:22:19,110 --> 00:22:17,600
a hundred percent it's not what we know

655
00:22:21,350 --> 00:22:19,120
from real life

656
00:22:23,270 --> 00:22:21,360
well when you think of you know he was

657
00:22:25,990 --> 00:22:23,280
in charge of a very important

658
00:22:26,390 --> 00:22:26,000
uh uh he was second in command of a very

659
00:22:31,990 --> 00:22:26,400
he was

660
00:22:33,590 --> 00:22:32,000
and a person he's a no-nonsense guy i

661
00:22:35,990 --> 00:22:33,600
mean i've talked to him

662
00:22:37,270 --> 00:22:36,000
for hours and hours off about houses and

663
00:22:38,789 --> 00:22:37,280
things like that when i was thinking

664
00:22:41,590 --> 00:22:38,799
about building a house and stuff

665
00:22:43,350 --> 00:22:41,600
he's a no-nonsense guy he he didn't want

666
00:22:45,270 --> 00:22:43,360
in this part of his life

667
00:22:47,430 --> 00:22:45,280
it's nothing he he puts it on a shelf he

668
00:22:49,029 --> 00:22:47,440
wants really nothing to do with it for

669
00:22:51,029 --> 00:22:49,039
long periods of time

670
00:22:53,110 --> 00:22:51,039
um and then you know he gets called out

671
00:22:54,870 --> 00:22:53,120
he'll he'll talk about it

672
00:22:56,789 --> 00:22:54,880
but there's other things what what about

673
00:22:59,990 --> 00:22:56,799
the broken tree branches

674
00:23:02,230 --> 00:23:00,000
um the the landing spots on the ground

675
00:23:03,750 --> 00:23:02,240
that are exactly they were both

676
00:23:06,549 --> 00:23:03,760
explained quite

677
00:23:09,270 --> 00:23:06,559
quite with down to earth reasons at the

678
00:23:12,630 --> 00:23:10,870
no no i'm talking about the marks on the

679
00:23:14,230 --> 00:23:12,640
trees they were cut they were actually

680
00:23:16,870 --> 00:23:14,240
made by the foresters

681
00:23:18,950 --> 00:23:16,880
to mark the trees for felon there's

682
00:23:22,390 --> 00:23:18,960
absolutely no doubt about that these

683
00:23:24,549 --> 00:23:22,400
see these any these these so-called

684
00:23:26,149 --> 00:23:24,559
facts are not facts

685
00:23:28,070 --> 00:23:26,159
they're they've been adequately

686
00:23:29,750 --> 00:23:28,080
explained over and over again but

687
00:23:30,230 --> 00:23:29,760
because people don't want to accept it

688
00:23:32,789 --> 00:23:30,240
they just

689
00:23:34,789 --> 00:23:32,799
become part of the story so it's not

690
00:23:37,990 --> 00:23:34,799
just the lighthouse then it's like

691
00:23:39,590 --> 00:23:38,000
oh well you know um

692
00:23:41,029 --> 00:23:39,600
there's the marks on the trees there's

693
00:23:43,430 --> 00:23:41,039
the holes in the ground

694
00:23:45,269 --> 00:23:43,440
but but all of those things are only

695
00:23:46,230 --> 00:23:45,279
significant when you actually put them

696
00:23:48,549 --> 00:23:46,240
together

697
00:23:50,789 --> 00:23:48,559
to make a ufo case and then this is what

698
00:23:54,070 --> 00:23:50,799
this is what you find in all these cases

699
00:23:56,470 --> 00:23:54,080
that what sounds impressive

700
00:23:57,190 --> 00:23:56,480
when it's sort of hyped up and it's made

701
00:23:59,269 --> 00:23:57,200
into

702
00:24:00,710 --> 00:23:59,279
you know a sensational ufo incident when

703
00:24:02,310 --> 00:24:00,720
you actually pare it down and you

704
00:24:03,510 --> 00:24:02,320
interview people and you go to the scene

705
00:24:06,549 --> 00:24:03,520
of the event

706
00:24:06,950 --> 00:24:06,559
this is what i found i mean i'd love to

707
00:24:09,029 --> 00:24:06,960
find

708
00:24:10,710 --> 00:24:09,039
evidence that something inexplicable had

709
00:24:12,630 --> 00:24:10,720
happened that you know we've been

710
00:24:13,990 --> 00:24:12,640
visited by aliens i mean as a journalist

711
00:24:14,470 --> 00:24:14,000
that would be the biggest scoop in the

712
00:24:16,070 --> 00:24:14,480
world

713
00:24:17,669 --> 00:24:16,080
but there's no point in making things

714
00:24:21,190 --> 00:24:17,679
out to be something that they're not

715
00:24:23,110 --> 00:24:21,200
how does that help us oh i'm not saying

716
00:24:24,870 --> 00:24:23,120
i'm not saying to perpetuate something

717
00:24:28,230 --> 00:24:24,880
that's false myself i

718
00:24:30,149 --> 00:24:28,240
i agree with that part um but i do think

719
00:24:32,789 --> 00:24:30,159
um you know the old saying don't throw

720
00:24:35,669 --> 00:24:32,799
the baby out with the bath water

721
00:24:36,390 --> 00:24:35,679
there's there's something to this um

722
00:24:38,149 --> 00:24:36,400
what about the

723
00:24:39,510 --> 00:24:38,159
other people and there was also

724
00:24:44,230 --> 00:24:39,520
radiation

725
00:24:46,789 --> 00:24:44,240
been thoroughly

726
00:24:48,549 --> 00:24:46,799
debunked but people just continue to

727
00:24:51,350 --> 00:24:48,559
ignore this and they just ignore the

728
00:24:52,070 --> 00:24:51,360
inconvenience evidence and they just

729
00:24:54,230 --> 00:24:52,080
prefer

730
00:24:55,830 --> 00:24:54,240
i mean for example nick pope keeps going

731
00:24:56,470 --> 00:24:55,840
on about the radiation readings and

732
00:24:59,269 --> 00:24:56,480
because he's

733
00:25:01,269 --> 00:24:59,279
believed to have worked at the mod what

734
00:25:01,909 --> 00:25:01,279
he says about it is being taken as read

735
00:25:04,870 --> 00:25:01,919
but

736
00:25:07,510 --> 00:25:04,880
the person who nick pope spoke to from

737
00:25:10,149 --> 00:25:07,520
the radiological protection board at

738
00:25:11,590 --> 00:25:10,159
the time when nick was in the was was

739
00:25:13,510 --> 00:25:11,600
doing the job he was doing

740
00:25:14,710 --> 00:25:13,520
i said these radiation readings are not

741
00:25:17,510 --> 00:25:14,720
significant

742
00:25:18,549 --> 00:25:17,520
but that's that's just been ignored how

743
00:25:20,149 --> 00:25:18,559
does that help us

744
00:25:22,470 --> 00:25:20,159
get anywhere near the truth all i'm

745
00:25:23,990 --> 00:25:22,480
saying is let's look at all the evidence

746
00:25:24,870 --> 00:25:24,000
not just at the evidence that you want

747
00:25:26,789 --> 00:25:24,880
to believe

748
00:25:28,310 --> 00:25:26,799
and and the thing about that you

749
00:25:29,590 --> 00:25:28,320
mentioned earlier about you know

750
00:25:31,190 --> 00:25:29,600
you believe that there's something in

751
00:25:31,750 --> 00:25:31,200
this that there's something to be

752
00:25:34,070 --> 00:25:31,760
discovered

753
00:25:35,750 --> 00:25:34,080
so do i that's why i'm still here

754
00:25:37,430 --> 00:25:35,760
looking into it and that's why i'm still

755
00:25:39,590 --> 00:25:37,440
making freedom of information requests

756
00:25:42,789 --> 00:25:39,600
about it i don't think it's

757
00:25:43,350 --> 00:25:42,799
the even even even though i'm saying i

758
00:25:47,029 --> 00:25:43,360
think

759
00:25:48,549 --> 00:25:47,039
something happened that has yet to be

760
00:25:51,190 --> 00:25:48,559
explained that's that

761
00:25:52,549 --> 00:25:51,200
that's why i'm still interested in it

762
00:25:54,470 --> 00:25:52,559
are you talking about this particular

763
00:25:56,789 --> 00:25:54,480
case or the subject in general yeah

764
00:25:58,630 --> 00:25:56,799
so what about the earlier witnesses like

765
00:26:00,789 --> 00:25:58,640
jim peniston and john burroughs who you

766
00:26:02,789 --> 00:26:00,799
have coming up on your show here soon

767
00:26:04,950 --> 00:26:02,799
they saw something they they saw

768
00:26:06,470 --> 00:26:04,960
something what i'm saying is

769
00:26:08,870 --> 00:26:06,480
um there are a number of different

770
00:26:10,549 --> 00:26:08,880
elements to this case

771
00:26:13,430 --> 00:26:10,559
don't forget it happened over three

772
00:26:15,909 --> 00:26:13,440
nights why why should we assume

773
00:26:17,510 --> 00:26:15,919
that what was seen on the first night is

774
00:26:19,430 --> 00:26:17,520
the same thing that was seen on the

775
00:26:21,909 --> 00:26:19,440
third night

776
00:26:24,470 --> 00:26:21,919
i mean just looking at it logically is

777
00:26:26,230 --> 00:26:24,480
it possible do you think that

778
00:26:28,070 --> 00:26:26,240
something inexplicable happened on the

779
00:26:31,510 --> 00:26:28,080
first night

780
00:26:32,310 --> 00:26:31,520
that caused a big um sensational sort of

781
00:26:34,149 --> 00:26:32,320
rumor

782
00:26:35,990 --> 00:26:34,159
that spread through the base and the

783
00:26:36,549 --> 00:26:36,000
colonel holt then went out two nights

784
00:26:39,029 --> 00:26:36,559
later

785
00:26:39,990 --> 00:26:39,039
on the back of that and saw something

786
00:26:43,029 --> 00:26:40,000
like that

787
00:26:44,789 --> 00:26:43,039
like the lightest pardon me first time i

788
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:44,799
ever sneezed on my own shop

789
00:26:48,470 --> 00:26:46,930
yeah you must be allergic to rendlesham

790
00:26:50,390 --> 00:26:48,480
[Laughter]

791
00:26:51,510 --> 00:26:50,400
i'm allergic to debunking no i'm not

792
00:26:53,669 --> 00:26:51,520
you're not debunking

793
00:26:56,149 --> 00:26:53,679
i think all i'm going to try to do is

794
00:26:57,830 --> 00:26:56,159
just make people think

795
00:26:59,909 --> 00:26:57,840
call me a debunker if you like but i

796
00:27:02,149 --> 00:26:59,919
just think that there's no no i

797
00:27:03,110 --> 00:27:02,159
i i'm not calling you because i don't

798
00:27:06,390 --> 00:27:03,120
think

799
00:27:06,789 --> 00:27:06,400
a bad you've word mentality that it's

800
00:27:08,710 --> 00:27:06,799
like

801
00:27:10,149 --> 00:27:08,720
because colonel halt said this we've got

802
00:27:12,149 --> 00:27:10,159
to believe what he says

803
00:27:14,390 --> 00:27:12,159
without question well i'm sorry i don't

804
00:27:16,789 --> 00:27:14,400
buy that as a journalist i've never

805
00:27:18,710 --> 00:27:16,799
just believed what someone tells me i i

806
00:27:21,430 --> 00:27:18,720
want to find out what the truth is

807
00:27:22,630 --> 00:27:21,440
and people always have motivations for

808
00:27:24,710 --> 00:27:22,640
saying what they say

809
00:27:26,789 --> 00:27:24,720
and if we look at what colonel hall said

810
00:27:28,470 --> 00:27:26,799
he's not even told a consistent story

811
00:27:30,630 --> 00:27:28,480
every time he tells the story

812
00:27:32,549 --> 00:27:30,640
it gets bigger and bigger you know it's

813
00:27:35,190 --> 00:27:32,559
almost like a chinese

814
00:27:37,190 --> 00:27:35,200
whisper or snowball running down the

815
00:27:39,029 --> 00:27:37,200
hill what he actually said back in 1980

816
00:27:39,830 --> 00:27:39,039
there's no comparison to what he's

817
00:27:42,070 --> 00:27:39,840
saying now

818
00:27:43,190 --> 00:27:42,080
so even that alone should should

819
00:27:45,029 --> 00:27:43,200
hopefully

820
00:27:47,190 --> 00:27:45,039
make people who've got some critical

821
00:27:49,190 --> 00:27:47,200
faculties think hold on a minute

822
00:27:51,269 --> 00:27:49,200
he said this in 1980 he's now saying

823
00:27:53,669 --> 00:27:51,279
something completely different in 1991

824
00:27:55,510 --> 00:27:53,679
shouldn't we actually think um why is he

825
00:27:57,269 --> 00:27:55,520
saying why has he changed his story

826
00:27:59,990 --> 00:27:57,279
the thing about the beams of light going

827
00:28:02,389 --> 00:28:00,000
down onto the weapon storage area

828
00:28:03,909 --> 00:28:02,399
he say he said that in 1991 but he

829
00:28:05,190 --> 00:28:03,919
didn't put that in his memo to the

830
00:28:07,110 --> 00:28:05,200
ministry of defense don't you think

831
00:28:09,990 --> 00:28:07,120
there's something odd about that

832
00:28:10,870 --> 00:28:10,000
you said you're in control of a nuclear

833
00:28:13,669 --> 00:28:10,880
base

834
00:28:15,350 --> 00:28:13,679
and he was telling the host country that

835
00:28:17,430 --> 00:28:15,360
his nuclear base was in

836
00:28:18,389 --> 00:28:17,440
he he'd been out there and he'd saw an

837
00:28:20,630 --> 00:28:18,399
unknown object

838
00:28:21,430 --> 00:28:20,640
beaming down onto a weapon storage

839
00:28:22,870 --> 00:28:21,440
facility

840
00:28:24,630 --> 00:28:22,880
and yeah he didn't think that he should

841
00:28:26,470 --> 00:28:24,640
tell the ministry of defense about it

842
00:28:28,149 --> 00:28:26,480
at the time don't you think there's

843
00:28:30,230 --> 00:28:28,159
something strange about that

844
00:28:31,909 --> 00:28:30,240
and was that memo at the time a

845
00:28:34,710 --> 00:28:31,919
classified memo

846
00:28:35,990 --> 00:28:34,720
no it was not so i'm just wondering if

847
00:28:39,190 --> 00:28:36,000
he could put something like

848
00:28:40,470 --> 00:28:39,200
that in an unclassified memo about the

849
00:28:43,110 --> 00:28:40,480
weapon storage area

850
00:28:44,470 --> 00:28:43,120
well by his own words that's the only

851
00:28:46,149 --> 00:28:44,480
piece of uh

852
00:28:47,669 --> 00:28:46,159
information that he submitted to the

853
00:28:49,190 --> 00:28:47,679
british ministry defense

854
00:28:51,190 --> 00:28:49,200
using his own words on this he didn't

855
00:28:53,430 --> 00:28:51,200
submit anything else

856
00:28:55,269 --> 00:28:53,440
because uh when i have talked to him and

857
00:28:56,070 --> 00:28:55,279
asked if there were nuclear warheads per

858
00:28:58,789 --> 00:28:56,080
se

859
00:28:59,830 --> 00:28:58,799
on that location he says don't even ask

860
00:29:02,310 --> 00:28:59,840
me that

861
00:29:03,350 --> 00:29:02,320
you know he can't you know because he's

862
00:29:05,430 --> 00:29:03,360
you know it's classif

863
00:29:07,029 --> 00:29:05,440
it was classified and he can't he can't

864
00:29:09,990 --> 00:29:07,039
suppose we can't talk about it

865
00:29:11,029 --> 00:29:10,000
but i mean consider that point he as you

866
00:29:12,710 --> 00:29:11,039
said he was

867
00:29:14,710 --> 00:29:12,720
i mean he wasn't in charge of the base

868
00:29:15,909 --> 00:29:14,720
it was actually colonel ted ted conrad

869
00:29:18,549 --> 00:29:15,919
who was in charge of the base

870
00:29:19,990 --> 00:29:18,559
who was talking to colonel holt whilst

871
00:29:22,710 --> 00:29:20,000
he was in the forest

872
00:29:24,310 --> 00:29:22,720
now if he's in charge of this base and

873
00:29:26,070 --> 00:29:24,320
as you say is he's guarding all this

874
00:29:28,630 --> 00:29:26,080
sensitive material whether it's nuclear

875
00:29:29,510 --> 00:29:28,640
or not if he thinks as a genuine threat

876
00:29:31,190 --> 00:29:29,520
to that base

877
00:29:33,269 --> 00:29:31,200
why would he hang around in the forest

878
00:29:35,750 --> 00:29:33,279
all night and then go back to bed

879
00:29:36,310 --> 00:29:35,760
um without pressing the button getting

880
00:29:41,350 --> 00:29:36,320
the

881
00:29:43,590 --> 00:29:41,360
to actually investigate this

882
00:29:45,029 --> 00:29:43,600
i've wondered about um scrambling i've

883
00:29:47,510 --> 00:29:45,039
wondered about that and never

884
00:29:49,269 --> 00:29:47,520
have never asked him so let me ask you

885
00:29:52,389 --> 00:29:49,279
this we can move on to other things but

886
00:29:54,310 --> 00:29:52,399
before we do um what do you think is the

887
00:29:56,549 --> 00:29:54,320
most compelling part of that case

888
00:29:58,549 --> 00:29:56,559
that keeps you interested in looking at

889
00:29:59,990 --> 00:29:58,559
it i think it's what you've just said

890
00:30:01,510 --> 00:30:00,000
the you know the the story from the

891
00:30:03,269 --> 00:30:01,520
first night of the um

892
00:30:05,430 --> 00:30:03,279
john burroughs and jim peniston who went

893
00:30:08,549 --> 00:30:05,440
into the forest you know

894
00:30:09,430 --> 00:30:08,559
something happened to them yeah they saw

895
00:30:10,870 --> 00:30:09,440
the lighthouse

896
00:30:12,230 --> 00:30:10,880
because it's in their own statements

897
00:30:14,470 --> 00:30:12,240
that they followed the lighthouse but

898
00:30:16,710 --> 00:30:14,480
they also saw something else

899
00:30:17,750 --> 00:30:16,720
something happened to them there and and

900
00:30:20,630 --> 00:30:17,760
i'm not

901
00:30:21,830 --> 00:30:20,640
i'm i'm open-minded people have bizarre

902
00:30:25,029 --> 00:30:21,840
experiences that

903
00:30:27,510 --> 00:30:25,039
are remain unexplained and having

904
00:30:29,590 --> 00:30:27,520
sort of spoken to john boras about this

905
00:30:31,909 --> 00:30:29,600
in great detail i'm convinced that

906
00:30:33,430 --> 00:30:31,919
something inexplicable happened to them

907
00:30:34,870 --> 00:30:33,440
i don't know do you think about what do

908
00:30:36,470 --> 00:30:34,880
you think about the debriefings do you

909
00:30:40,310 --> 00:30:36,480
think there was actually really

910
00:30:42,710 --> 00:30:40,320
a drug drugging the soldiers

911
00:30:45,909 --> 00:30:42,720
you know or whatever do you think do you

912
00:30:48,070 --> 00:30:45,919
think that's exaggerated

913
00:30:50,070 --> 00:30:48,080
who knows but where's the evidence for

914
00:30:51,669 --> 00:30:50,080
it um

915
00:30:53,590 --> 00:30:51,679
i i guess they would never have evidence

916
00:30:55,269 --> 00:30:53,600
of something like that i don't know

917
00:30:57,590 --> 00:30:55,279
yeah it sounds it sounds to me like

918
00:30:58,950 --> 00:30:57,600
something lifted from a plot of a james

919
00:31:01,029 --> 00:30:58,960
bond film

920
00:31:02,789 --> 00:31:01,039
you know and and and again like the

921
00:31:04,149 --> 00:31:02,799
thing from jim penniston the thing about

922
00:31:06,230 --> 00:31:04,159
the binary code

923
00:31:08,310 --> 00:31:06,240
there was a there was various science

924
00:31:09,350 --> 00:31:08,320
fiction films that were doing the rounds

925
00:31:11,269 --> 00:31:09,360
at the time this happened

926
00:31:13,830 --> 00:31:11,279
which has got exactly the same motif in

927
00:31:15,350 --> 00:31:13,840
it of flying sources crashing um hangar

928
00:31:17,110 --> 00:31:15,360
18 the movie

929
00:31:19,110 --> 00:31:17,120
was on release at the time which has got

930
00:31:21,110 --> 00:31:19,120
exactly the same scenario in it with

931
00:31:23,269 --> 00:31:21,120
with you know the hieroglyphs yeah i

932
00:31:25,669 --> 00:31:23,279
remember that yeah

933
00:31:26,389 --> 00:31:25,679
yeah the idea the idea that these these

934
00:31:30,149 --> 00:31:26,399
stories

935
00:31:33,350 --> 00:31:30,159
are somehow um aren't related

936
00:31:34,950 --> 00:31:33,360
to pop culture and aren't related to

937
00:31:37,029 --> 00:31:34,960
science fiction and what people are

938
00:31:37,430 --> 00:31:37,039
watching and tv and movies i just i just

939
00:31:39,830 --> 00:31:37,440
think

940
00:31:41,830 --> 00:31:39,840
you can't get away from that it's it's

941
00:31:45,269 --> 00:31:41,840
intrinsic part

942
00:31:47,909 --> 00:31:45,279
of the ufo experience yeah

943
00:31:48,789 --> 00:31:47,919
um that's a topic we have brought up a

944
00:31:51,909 --> 00:31:48,799
number of times

945
00:31:52,230 --> 00:31:51,919
the influence of pop culture on you know

946
00:31:53,750 --> 00:31:52,240
this

947
00:31:56,230 --> 00:31:53,760
subject in general i mean just look

948
00:31:58,789 --> 00:31:56,240
behind you in that poster

949
00:31:59,269 --> 00:31:58,799
no i mean yeah this is my interest in it

950
00:32:01,909 --> 00:31:59,279
and

951
00:32:03,909 --> 00:32:01,919
to me i i don't i'm not really

952
00:32:04,389 --> 00:32:03,919
interested in whether it's true or false

953
00:32:07,669 --> 00:32:04,399
i think

954
00:32:09,350 --> 00:32:07,679
that's pointless exercise and why what

955
00:32:11,830 --> 00:32:09,360
someone's truth

956
00:32:13,669 --> 00:32:11,840
isn't necessarily someone else's truth

957
00:32:15,669 --> 00:32:13,679
um so it's pointless looking at whether

958
00:32:16,789 --> 00:32:15,679
whether these things are real or not of

959
00:32:18,710 --> 00:32:16,799
course they're real

960
00:32:19,909 --> 00:32:18,720
you know because people have experiences

961
00:32:23,350 --> 00:32:19,919
with things

962
00:32:24,310 --> 00:32:23,360
um that might i mean let's say for

963
00:32:26,789 --> 00:32:24,320
instance that

964
00:32:28,950 --> 00:32:26,799
you know the the the rental from ufo was

965
00:32:30,870 --> 00:32:28,960
something quite ordinary

966
00:32:32,470 --> 00:32:30,880
but the fact that someone went into the

967
00:32:34,710 --> 00:32:32,480
forest and had an extraordinary

968
00:32:37,909 --> 00:32:34,720
experience with something ordinary

969
00:32:39,190 --> 00:32:37,919
to me it's magic you know i'm interested

970
00:32:40,470 --> 00:32:39,200
in it as a result of that this

971
00:32:42,549 --> 00:32:40,480
people have been having these kinds of

972
00:32:45,909 --> 00:32:42,559
experiences ever since there's been

973
00:32:47,990 --> 00:32:45,919
human beings on the planet you know

974
00:32:49,830 --> 00:32:48,000
this is folklore this is what's led to

975
00:32:50,710 --> 00:32:49,840
us all of our myths and legends all

976
00:32:52,549 --> 00:32:50,720
through the ages

977
00:32:54,870 --> 00:32:52,559
this is what interests me and it's it's

978
00:32:56,630 --> 00:32:54,880
the stuff the way that people tell these

979
00:32:57,430 --> 00:32:56,640
stories and the effects it has on their

980
00:32:59,029 --> 00:32:57,440
lives

981
00:33:01,269 --> 00:32:59,039
because you know colonel colonel holt

982
00:33:02,149 --> 00:33:01,279
whatever it was he saw it's he's changed

983
00:33:04,950 --> 00:33:02,159
his life

984
00:33:06,710 --> 00:33:04,960
traveling around the world being

985
00:33:08,789 --> 00:33:06,720
interviewed by people

986
00:33:10,470 --> 00:33:08,799
you know having you know people like me

987
00:33:11,430 --> 00:33:10,480
giving him a hard time and et cetera et

988
00:33:13,190 --> 00:33:11,440
cetera

989
00:33:15,190 --> 00:33:13,200
you know that's that's that's altered

990
00:33:17,029 --> 00:33:15,200
his life that is interested in its own

991
00:33:18,710 --> 00:33:17,039
right never mind what it was he saw in

992
00:33:22,549 --> 00:33:18,720
the first place

993
00:33:25,350 --> 00:33:22,559
yeah yeah um when um

994
00:33:27,110 --> 00:33:25,360
when when people have these experiences

995
00:33:27,750 --> 00:33:27,120
you said it changes their life have you

996
00:33:30,389 --> 00:33:27,760
ever had

997
00:33:31,590 --> 00:33:30,399
any like experience yourself that was

998
00:33:35,590 --> 00:33:31,600
not

999
00:33:37,190 --> 00:33:35,600
mean i think i saw

1000
00:33:39,029 --> 00:33:37,200
you know the thing that there was a

1001
00:33:42,470 --> 00:33:39,039
there was a russian rocket body that

1002
00:33:46,310 --> 00:33:42,480
disintegrated over the uk

1003
00:33:46,789 --> 00:33:46,320
um on on new year's eve 1978 that was

1004
00:33:49,190 --> 00:33:46,799
seen

1005
00:33:50,310 --> 00:33:49,200
by hundreds and thousands of people

1006
00:33:52,549 --> 00:33:50,320
right across the uk

1007
00:33:53,909 --> 00:33:52,559
and many of whom reported it to the

1008
00:33:55,909 --> 00:33:53,919
ministry of defense

1009
00:33:57,350 --> 00:33:55,919
yeah that's spectacular yeah it was

1010
00:34:00,149 --> 00:33:57,360
spectacular yeah

1011
00:34:01,269 --> 00:34:00,159
and many people reported that in as a

1012
00:34:03,430 --> 00:34:01,279
flying saucer

1013
00:34:04,950 --> 00:34:03,440
you know i mean this is one of the files

1014
00:34:06,870 --> 00:34:04,960
that i went through when i did the

1015
00:34:08,470 --> 00:34:06,880
the project with the national archives

1016
00:34:09,829 --> 00:34:08,480
there's a big fat file of all these

1017
00:34:11,510 --> 00:34:09,839
sightings that were made

1018
00:34:13,109 --> 00:34:11,520
and a lot of people in there say when

1019
00:34:13,909 --> 00:34:13,119
they were actually told that this was

1020
00:34:16,629 --> 00:34:13,919
part of a

1021
00:34:17,829 --> 00:34:16,639
russian cosmos rocket body saying like

1022
00:34:20,149 --> 00:34:17,839
colonel hall no i

1023
00:34:21,829 --> 00:34:20,159
i wasn't a rocket body you know it was

1024
00:34:23,829 --> 00:34:21,839
definitely something unusual

1025
00:34:25,109 --> 00:34:23,839
i could see windows in it was one of

1026
00:34:27,750 --> 00:34:25,119
them you know i mean

1027
00:34:29,190 --> 00:34:27,760
so what you got to ask yourself then was

1028
00:34:30,069 --> 00:34:29,200
well they said they saw it at nine

1029
00:34:33,270 --> 00:34:30,079
o'clock

1030
00:34:34,149 --> 00:34:33,280
on new year's eve 1978 but it wasn't the

1031
00:34:36,230 --> 00:34:34,159
rocket body

1032
00:34:37,190 --> 00:34:36,240
that we know re-entered at exactly that

1033
00:34:40,790 --> 00:34:37,200
moment so

1034
00:34:42,470 --> 00:34:40,800
so aliens then came in and reent came in

1035
00:34:44,069 --> 00:34:42,480
exactly they knew the rocket body was

1036
00:34:45,430 --> 00:34:44,079
going to enter the earth's atmosphere at

1037
00:34:47,430 --> 00:34:45,440
that precise time

1038
00:34:49,510 --> 00:34:47,440
so they thought we'll just sneak in

1039
00:34:52,629 --> 00:34:49,520
behind it so no one will see us

1040
00:34:55,829 --> 00:34:52,639
i mean yeah so if you accept that people

1041
00:34:58,310 --> 00:34:55,839
can make that kind of fundamental error

1042
00:35:01,109 --> 00:34:58,320
and continue to believe that what they

1043
00:35:03,190 --> 00:35:01,119
saw wasn't the rocket body it was a ufo

1044
00:35:04,870 --> 00:35:03,200
how can you believe someone like colonel

1045
00:35:05,829 --> 00:35:04,880
holt when he tells you no it wasn't a

1046
00:35:09,109 --> 00:35:05,839
lighthouse

1047
00:35:13,030 --> 00:35:09,119
that's my that's my bottom line yeah

1048
00:35:15,510 --> 00:35:13,040
well you know human testimony is not

1049
00:35:17,430 --> 00:35:15,520
reliable under any circumstances unless

1050
00:35:21,270 --> 00:35:17,440
it's corroborated by

1051
00:35:23,829 --> 00:35:21,280
other independent um whether it's radar

1052
00:35:24,710 --> 00:35:23,839
whether it's photography whether it's

1053
00:35:25,990 --> 00:35:24,720
whatever

1054
00:35:27,430 --> 00:35:26,000
you can't just rely on what someone

1055
00:35:28,950 --> 00:35:27,440
tells you even if they're surrounded by

1056
00:35:31,430 --> 00:35:28,960
other people

1057
00:35:33,109 --> 00:35:31,440
you know i i had a ufo sighting was

1058
00:35:35,670 --> 00:35:33,119
nothing spectacular

1059
00:35:36,870 --> 00:35:35,680
but it was something that i could

1060
00:35:39,510 --> 00:35:36,880
absolutely not explain

1061
00:35:41,510 --> 00:35:39,520
what i saw but you know i always and

1062
00:35:44,710 --> 00:35:41,520
that happened in 2006 not

1063
00:35:46,950 --> 00:35:44,720
terribly long ago but i always try to

1064
00:35:47,829 --> 00:35:46,960
i try to keep that fresh because i do

1065
00:35:51,510 --> 00:35:47,839
know another thing

1066
00:35:54,470 --> 00:35:51,520
is that you tend to change your memory

1067
00:35:55,109 --> 00:35:54,480
tends to change and and that's why a lot

1068
00:35:58,950 --> 00:35:55,119
of times

1069
00:36:01,589 --> 00:35:58,960
these stories change because people

1070
00:36:02,069 --> 00:36:01,599
they pick something up on the outside

1071
00:36:03,910 --> 00:36:02,079
and

1072
00:36:05,589 --> 00:36:03,920
somehow it becomes part of their story

1073
00:36:06,550 --> 00:36:05,599
but this this mine was just very simple

1074
00:36:08,069 --> 00:36:06,560
though so

1075
00:36:09,270 --> 00:36:08,079
this is the real shame with the rental

1076
00:36:11,990 --> 00:36:09,280
ship thing is that it was never

1077
00:36:14,150 --> 00:36:12,000
investigated properly at the time

1078
00:36:16,150 --> 00:36:14,160
i think everyone involved will accept

1079
00:36:17,109 --> 00:36:16,160
that that is that's where things went

1080
00:36:18,710 --> 00:36:17,119
wrong

1081
00:36:20,550 --> 00:36:18,720
you know that if the minister of defense

1082
00:36:21,750 --> 00:36:20,560
had done a proper investigation rather

1083
00:36:23,430 --> 00:36:21,760
than just saying oh we'll leave it to

1084
00:36:25,349 --> 00:36:23,440
the united states air force who didn't

1085
00:36:27,510 --> 00:36:25,359
do an investigation either

1086
00:36:28,710 --> 00:36:27,520
so it took it took journalists to get

1087
00:36:30,630 --> 00:36:28,720
this story out and

1088
00:36:32,470 --> 00:36:30,640
there's this other story isn't it that's

1089
00:36:34,550 --> 00:36:32,480
now becoming popular the thing the the

1090
00:36:37,349 --> 00:36:34,560
thing from scotland with the

1091
00:36:38,150 --> 00:36:37,359
you know the the the um the big diamond

1092
00:36:40,630 --> 00:36:38,160
shaped

1093
00:36:42,230 --> 00:36:40,640
1990 or whatever was it yeah the cop

1094
00:36:45,349 --> 00:36:42,240
let's talk we can talk about that

1095
00:36:47,270 --> 00:36:45,359
um but uh before we do i i just

1096
00:36:48,710 --> 00:36:47,280
i wanted to bring this up real quickly

1097
00:36:50,710 --> 00:36:48,720
and then we'll go into that

1098
00:36:52,230 --> 00:36:50,720
and that is uh you mentioned nick pope

1099
00:36:55,510 --> 00:36:52,240
earlier um

1100
00:36:58,630 --> 00:36:55,520
what do you believe there was a position

1101
00:37:01,750 --> 00:36:58,640
in the mod that he

1102
00:37:04,310 --> 00:37:01,760
claims he had investigating ufos well of

1103
00:37:06,470 --> 00:37:04,320
course there was a there was a ufo desk

1104
00:37:07,990 --> 00:37:06,480
which he was an incumbent of for three

1105
00:37:11,190 --> 00:37:08,000
years but he was just

1106
00:37:11,990 --> 00:37:11,200
one of dozens of different people who um

1107
00:37:15,589 --> 00:37:12,000
did that

1108
00:37:16,470 --> 00:37:15,599
task um and the the he didn't actually

1109
00:37:18,790 --> 00:37:16,480
investigate

1110
00:37:20,470 --> 00:37:18,800
anything he just he just received

1111
00:37:22,710 --> 00:37:20,480
reports and filed them

1112
00:37:23,829 --> 00:37:22,720
that's what he did he was a he was a

1113
00:37:27,670 --> 00:37:23,839
civil servant

1114
00:37:29,109 --> 00:37:27,680
there was a body that investigated cases

1115
00:37:31,270 --> 00:37:29,119
and he was known as the defense

1116
00:37:32,870 --> 00:37:31,280
intelligence staff di55

1117
00:37:35,270 --> 00:37:32,880
and they were the people who were tasked

1118
00:37:36,630 --> 00:37:35,280
to investigate um ufo incidents that

1119
00:37:39,829 --> 00:37:36,640
were deemed to have

1120
00:37:42,230 --> 00:37:39,839
some kind of military um um significance

1121
00:37:44,550 --> 00:37:42,240
and what you've got to understand the

1122
00:37:45,030 --> 00:37:44,560
the system is extremely complicated and

1123
00:37:48,310 --> 00:37:45,040
there was

1124
00:37:50,630 --> 00:37:48,320
at various times two or three different

1125
00:37:53,109 --> 00:37:50,640
departments of the british military

1126
00:37:54,069 --> 00:37:53,119
on the british mod who were involved in

1127
00:37:57,190 --> 00:37:54,079
investigating

1128
00:38:01,190 --> 00:37:57,200
ufos or responding to the public

1129
00:38:04,150 --> 00:38:01,200
and the the department that nick was

1130
00:38:05,910 --> 00:38:04,160
working for was the same one as the chap

1131
00:38:08,950 --> 00:38:05,920
i mentioned earlier clive neville

1132
00:38:09,750 --> 00:38:08,960
he was one of nick's predecessors uh the

1133
00:38:12,230 --> 00:38:09,760
person who was

1134
00:38:14,069 --> 00:38:12,240
who was doing that role when the calvin

1135
00:38:15,750 --> 00:38:14,079
incident happened the photograph that

1136
00:38:18,150 --> 00:38:15,760
you just mentioned was it was a chat

1137
00:38:21,589 --> 00:38:18,160
called owen hartop

1138
00:38:24,630 --> 00:38:21,599
now again all he did was prepare

1139
00:38:27,589 --> 00:38:24,640
um he brief ministers a filed

1140
00:38:28,870 --> 00:38:27,599
papers but they didn't do investigations

1141
00:38:30,550 --> 00:38:28,880
of the type that

1142
00:38:32,550 --> 00:38:30,560
you and i would do where you would

1143
00:38:34,390 --> 00:38:32,560
actually go out and speak to people and

1144
00:38:35,030 --> 00:38:34,400
interview people and follow it follow

1145
00:38:36,790 --> 00:38:35,040
things up

1146
00:38:39,190 --> 00:38:36,800
you might run a few checks with a local

1147
00:38:41,349 --> 00:38:39,200
radar station but that's about as far as

1148
00:38:43,109 --> 00:38:41,359
time allowed because it wasn't the only

1149
00:38:45,030 --> 00:38:43,119
task that they were doing there was

1150
00:38:48,230 --> 00:38:45,040
something like 20

1151
00:38:51,190 --> 00:38:48,240
of their time was spent on this subject

1152
00:38:52,069 --> 00:38:51,200
so if there was anything deemed to be a

1153
00:38:53,829 --> 00:38:52,079
potential

1154
00:38:55,510 --> 00:38:53,839
military significance or something that

1155
00:38:57,750 --> 00:38:55,520
needed further investigation it was

1156
00:38:59,510 --> 00:38:57,760
passed to di55

1157
00:39:01,510 --> 00:38:59,520
to do the investigation now i've spoken

1158
00:39:03,230 --> 00:39:01,520
to the i've interviewed most of the

1159
00:39:04,710 --> 00:39:03,240
people who worked on this subject in

1160
00:39:07,270 --> 00:39:04,720
di55

1161
00:39:08,870 --> 00:39:07,280
at that time and they tell me well nick

1162
00:39:10,790 --> 00:39:08,880
pope didn't have any involvement in this

1163
00:39:12,390 --> 00:39:10,800
we did the investigations

1164
00:39:14,870 --> 00:39:12,400
you know we didn't share information

1165
00:39:17,829 --> 00:39:14,880
with them because we didn't trust them

1166
00:39:20,069 --> 00:39:17,839
ah how interesting is it also because he

1167
00:39:23,109 --> 00:39:20,079
was actually a civil servant

1168
00:39:24,790 --> 00:39:23,119
yeah so he was a civilian yeah who was

1169
00:39:27,270 --> 00:39:24,800
pretty much doing he was briefing

1170
00:39:29,589 --> 00:39:27,280
ministers he was doing pr work and

1171
00:39:31,670 --> 00:39:29,599
during his time in the in the in the in

1172
00:39:33,109 --> 00:39:31,680
that in that job he thought well

1173
00:39:34,710 --> 00:39:33,119
i could make a living out of this i

1174
00:39:36,310 --> 00:39:34,720
could write books on it which is what

1175
00:39:37,990 --> 00:39:36,320
he's gone on to do i don't

1176
00:39:39,589 --> 00:39:38,000
i don't really i don't understand this

1177
00:39:40,470 --> 00:39:39,599
obsession with nick poop he's an

1178
00:39:43,030 --> 00:39:40,480
entertainer

1179
00:39:44,069 --> 00:39:43,040
he's not a researcher what research has

1180
00:39:50,069 --> 00:39:44,079
he actually done

1181
00:39:55,670 --> 00:39:53,109
um uh i have to say i

1182
00:39:57,270 --> 00:39:55,680
i well i probably should just leave that

1183
00:39:59,190 --> 00:39:57,280
one alone

1184
00:40:00,710 --> 00:39:59,200
you did ask me about him so i'm giving

1185
00:40:02,630 --> 00:40:00,720
you all yeah

1186
00:40:03,910 --> 00:40:02,640
i've got to say i do think nick perv did

1187
00:40:05,670 --> 00:40:03,920
a very good job

1188
00:40:07,589 --> 00:40:05,680
in bringing the subject to public

1189
00:40:09,109 --> 00:40:07,599
attention at the time he did

1190
00:40:10,790 --> 00:40:09,119
because there was a lot of people in the

1191
00:40:11,829 --> 00:40:10,800
mod who didn't want him to talk about

1192
00:40:15,910 --> 00:40:11,839
this subject

1193
00:40:17,430 --> 00:40:15,920
and i i i i give him praise for actually

1194
00:40:19,109 --> 00:40:17,440
standing up and saying you know that

1195
00:40:20,870 --> 00:40:19,119
this this is something

1196
00:40:22,230 --> 00:40:20,880
that needed investigated and taken

1197
00:40:24,710 --> 00:40:22,240
seriously but

1198
00:40:26,309 --> 00:40:24,720
after after that point i think uh i

1199
00:40:29,910 --> 00:40:26,319
think things went slightly wrong

1200
00:40:31,270 --> 00:40:29,920
somewhere and yeah it's it i it tends to

1201
00:40:34,470 --> 00:40:31,280
happen so let's go back

1202
00:40:35,109 --> 00:40:34,480
and talk about that 1990 case and what

1203
00:40:37,510 --> 00:40:35,119
is a d

1204
00:40:39,430 --> 00:40:37,520
notice by the way oh a d notice yeah

1205
00:40:42,550 --> 00:40:39,440
this is a system that the british

1206
00:40:44,230 --> 00:40:42,560
um military have had in place since well

1207
00:40:45,670 --> 00:40:44,240
since the first world war i think that's

1208
00:40:48,069 --> 00:40:45,680
when it came in

1209
00:40:48,790 --> 00:40:48,079
and it basically it's like it's a system

1210
00:40:52,069 --> 00:40:48,800
whereby

1211
00:40:55,270 --> 00:40:52,079
the military can talk to the media

1212
00:40:57,030 --> 00:40:55,280
um informally about stories that are

1213
00:40:58,870 --> 00:40:57,040
that the media are thinking of running

1214
00:41:00,309 --> 00:40:58,880
that might have national security

1215
00:41:01,510 --> 00:41:00,319
implications so obviously back in the

1216
00:41:03,349 --> 00:41:01,520
first world war

1217
00:41:05,430 --> 00:41:03,359
anything to do with like british

1218
00:41:06,630 --> 00:41:05,440
military movements where ships were

1219
00:41:08,710 --> 00:41:06,640
positioned

1220
00:41:11,109 --> 00:41:08,720
you know what where are the where our

1221
00:41:13,270 --> 00:41:11,119
where our tanks were that kind of thing

1222
00:41:14,870 --> 00:41:13,280
and obviously they they they don't want

1223
00:41:17,430 --> 00:41:14,880
the press publishing

1224
00:41:19,030 --> 00:41:17,440
uh information during wartime that might

1225
00:41:21,589 --> 00:41:19,040
be used to the enemy

1226
00:41:23,349 --> 00:41:21,599
so back then they could actually say

1227
00:41:24,870 --> 00:41:23,359
don't publish this

1228
00:41:27,109 --> 00:41:24,880
full stop you know so that they could

1229
00:41:29,430 --> 00:41:27,119
they could issue the um

1230
00:41:30,790 --> 00:41:29,440
the the media with a d notice but as we

1231
00:41:33,510 --> 00:41:30,800
get nearer nearer the

1232
00:41:34,790 --> 00:41:33,520
the present day they don't tend to do

1233
00:41:37,670 --> 00:41:34,800
that so what we've actually got at the

1234
00:41:40,470 --> 00:41:37,680
moment is a system that's voluntary

1235
00:41:41,270 --> 00:41:40,480
um there are actual standing d notices

1236
00:41:42,950 --> 00:41:41,280
that you can

1237
00:41:44,790 --> 00:41:42,960
read on the internet there's five of

1238
00:41:48,150 --> 00:41:44,800
them so

1239
00:41:50,390 --> 00:41:48,160
the the the military don't tend to will

1240
00:41:51,190 --> 00:41:50,400
would not sort of contact a newspaper

1241
00:41:55,510 --> 00:41:51,200
and

1242
00:41:58,950 --> 00:41:55,520
can't write about this subject

1243
00:42:01,430 --> 00:41:58,960
there is a there is a a committee

1244
00:42:01,990 --> 00:42:01,440
that exists that you as a journalist can

1245
00:42:03,430 --> 00:42:02,000
phone

1246
00:42:05,349 --> 00:42:03,440
and that there's a i think there's a

1247
00:42:07,750 --> 00:42:05,359
rear admiral or something that that

1248
00:42:09,349 --> 00:42:07,760
talks to the media so if you are working

1249
00:42:10,870 --> 00:42:09,359
on a story

1250
00:42:12,790 --> 00:42:10,880
and you think oh you know this is

1251
00:42:14,790 --> 00:42:12,800
something to do with one of our

1252
00:42:17,109 --> 00:42:14,800
spies working in russia or something

1253
00:42:19,030 --> 00:42:17,119
like that and you're a bit worried that

1254
00:42:20,150 --> 00:42:19,040
you know something that you write might

1255
00:42:22,390 --> 00:42:20,160
expose them

1256
00:42:24,309 --> 00:42:22,400
or might might be risky from a national

1257
00:42:25,910 --> 00:42:24,319
security perspective you can phone up

1258
00:42:27,430 --> 00:42:25,920
the d notice committee

1259
00:42:28,950 --> 00:42:27,440
and talk to them i've done it myself on

1260
00:42:31,990 --> 00:42:28,960
numerous occasions

1261
00:42:33,510 --> 00:42:32,000
um quite once quite recently um just to

1262
00:42:34,950 --> 00:42:33,520
find out what what they've

1263
00:42:37,750 --> 00:42:34,960
whether they've actually used one of

1264
00:42:39,829 --> 00:42:37,760
these things um in the context of ufos

1265
00:42:41,750 --> 00:42:39,839
for instance in the past

1266
00:42:43,510 --> 00:42:41,760
and so they they don't actually stop you

1267
00:42:46,550 --> 00:42:43,520
from publishing anything but they

1268
00:42:48,150 --> 00:42:46,560
they advise you very strongly that it's

1269
00:42:50,710 --> 00:42:48,160
not wise to publish

1270
00:42:52,309 --> 00:42:50,720
um for example the name and address of

1271
00:42:54,550 --> 00:42:52,319
someone who works for the intelligence

1272
00:42:56,230 --> 00:42:54,560
services and i think most journalists

1273
00:42:58,470 --> 00:42:56,240
would sort of think well that isn't a

1274
00:43:00,309 --> 00:42:58,480
good thing to do actually yeah

1275
00:43:01,829 --> 00:43:00,319
yeah so that that's how the d notice

1276
00:43:03,430 --> 00:43:01,839
system works but as far as i've been

1277
00:43:06,309 --> 00:43:03,440
able to ascertain

1278
00:43:07,190 --> 00:43:06,319
they've never used a specific d notice

1279
00:43:09,750 --> 00:43:07,200
to stop

1280
00:43:12,230 --> 00:43:09,760
uh a store story being published on ufos

1281
00:43:15,270 --> 00:43:12,240
but that isn't quite the same

1282
00:43:17,750 --> 00:43:15,280
as offering advice to an editor maybe

1283
00:43:20,710 --> 00:43:17,760
you know you know maybe you shouldn't

1284
00:43:23,030 --> 00:43:20,720
you know use this particular photo or

1285
00:43:24,790 --> 00:43:23,040
i don't know who knows what goes on

1286
00:43:27,910 --> 00:43:24,800
because there's no official record of

1287
00:43:31,349 --> 00:43:27,920
discussions that they have with editors

1288
00:43:31,829 --> 00:43:31,359
how about that wow and uh let's go back

1289
00:43:36,230 --> 00:43:31,839
to

1290
00:43:39,670 --> 00:43:36,240
the uh the 1990 situation

1291
00:43:40,069 --> 00:43:39,680
um and that was in scotland and what was

1292
00:43:43,829 --> 00:43:40,079
that

1293
00:43:46,150 --> 00:43:43,839
explained basically

1294
00:43:47,510 --> 00:43:46,160
okay it's not being explained what it

1295
00:43:50,630 --> 00:43:47,520
what it was it was um

1296
00:43:51,030 --> 00:43:50,640
it was a case where two um people were

1297
00:43:53,829 --> 00:43:51,040
out

1298
00:43:55,109 --> 00:43:53,839
um in the i don't know what they were

1299
00:43:56,790 --> 00:43:55,119
doing whether they were they were

1300
00:43:59,510 --> 00:43:56,800
walking or

1301
00:44:00,870 --> 00:43:59,520
just passes by they were out on on in

1302
00:44:03,270 --> 00:44:00,880
the wilds of scotland

1303
00:44:04,069 --> 00:44:03,280
and they saw what they described as a

1304
00:44:05,990 --> 00:44:04,079
very large

1305
00:44:07,190 --> 00:44:06,000
diamond-shaped object hovering in the

1306
00:44:08,470 --> 00:44:07,200
sky and

1307
00:44:11,430 --> 00:44:08,480
whilst they were watching this thing

1308
00:44:12,309 --> 00:44:11,440
they saw what looked like a royal air

1309
00:44:15,510 --> 00:44:12,319
force jet

1310
00:44:17,270 --> 00:44:15,520
that was making pass that was obviously

1311
00:44:19,829 --> 00:44:17,280
observing this object

1312
00:44:20,950 --> 00:44:19,839
making passes several passes whilst they

1313
00:44:22,790 --> 00:44:20,960
were watching this and i think it was

1314
00:44:23,829 --> 00:44:22,800
quite for a lengthy period of time and

1315
00:44:27,430 --> 00:44:23,839
then they took

1316
00:44:30,390 --> 00:44:27,440
i think six photographs of the object

1317
00:44:32,230 --> 00:44:30,400
this huge diamond shape thing and at the

1318
00:44:35,430 --> 00:44:32,240
end of this observation it just sort of

1319
00:44:37,190 --> 00:44:35,440
zoomed upwards and vanished and

1320
00:44:38,470 --> 00:44:37,200
from the this from the from the files

1321
00:44:40,790 --> 00:44:38,480
that have been released on this

1322
00:44:41,670 --> 00:44:40,800
um what happened then was the

1323
00:44:43,910 --> 00:44:41,680
photographers

1324
00:44:45,030 --> 00:44:43,920
sent the photographs to an raf base

1325
00:44:47,990 --> 00:44:45,040
called petrievie

1326
00:44:50,710 --> 00:44:48,000
um in the north of scotland and also to

1327
00:44:53,430 --> 00:44:50,720
a newspaper the scottish daily record

1328
00:44:55,190 --> 00:44:53,440
um and i think the scottish daily record

1329
00:44:56,950 --> 00:44:55,200
sent the photographs to the ministry of

1330
00:44:59,510 --> 00:44:56,960
defence in london who obviously thought

1331
00:45:01,190 --> 00:44:59,520
these are interesting and they assumed

1332
00:45:03,430 --> 00:45:01,200
that the scottish daily record

1333
00:45:06,069 --> 00:45:03,440
would publish them and all the the the

1334
00:45:09,430 --> 00:45:06,079
bits the the files which i have here

1335
00:45:11,030 --> 00:45:09,440
there's even a a a a a briefing that

1336
00:45:12,790 --> 00:45:11,040
they produce this is the minister of

1337
00:45:14,470 --> 00:45:12,800
defense to

1338
00:45:16,150 --> 00:45:14,480
to ministers because they obviously

1339
00:45:17,430 --> 00:45:16,160
expected this story to break and these

1340
00:45:20,230 --> 00:45:17,440
photographs are apparently

1341
00:45:21,030 --> 00:45:20,240
very impressive well this is uh this

1342
00:45:24,069 --> 00:45:21,040
pardon me

1343
00:45:25,990 --> 00:45:24,079
is this is a facsimile isn't it yeah

1344
00:45:27,670 --> 00:45:26,000
uh this is an artist's impression doing

1345
00:45:28,790 --> 00:45:27,680
anyone watching this please don't take

1346
00:45:31,589 --> 00:45:28,800
that as being the

1347
00:45:32,150 --> 00:45:31,599
actual photograph yeah i mean here is

1348
00:45:35,109 --> 00:45:32,160
the

1349
00:45:35,670 --> 00:45:35,119
this one i'm holding up is a is all that

1350
00:45:38,950 --> 00:45:35,680
exists

1351
00:45:41,589 --> 00:45:38,960
in the files it's a it's a

1352
00:45:42,870 --> 00:45:41,599
photocopy i've seen the original

1353
00:45:46,309 --> 00:45:42,880
photograph now that

1354
00:45:47,910 --> 00:45:46,319
looks impressive does it

1355
00:45:49,270 --> 00:45:47,920
no i mean it does look like something

1356
00:45:50,230 --> 00:45:49,280
let me pull that i'm going to pull that

1357
00:45:51,990 --> 00:45:50,240
up on the

1358
00:45:53,910 --> 00:45:52,000
uh no i can't right now but i'll i'll

1359
00:45:55,750 --> 00:45:53,920
try to pull that image up on

1360
00:45:57,270 --> 00:45:55,760
the screen so people can see it in

1361
00:46:00,550 --> 00:45:57,280
youtube um

1362
00:46:02,710 --> 00:46:00,560
if i can get it as a image but um

1363
00:46:05,270 --> 00:46:02,720
so this i mean anything can be done with

1364
00:46:07,589 --> 00:46:05,280
the photocopy that's kind of uh

1365
00:46:08,390 --> 00:46:07,599
you know i mean the mystery is what

1366
00:46:11,109 --> 00:46:08,400
happened to the

1367
00:46:13,190 --> 00:46:11,119
original photographs and why didn't the

1368
00:46:15,270 --> 00:46:13,200
scottish daily record publish the story

1369
00:46:16,390 --> 00:46:15,280
at the time they had the exclusive and

1370
00:46:19,670 --> 00:46:16,400
as a journalist i

1371
00:46:20,470 --> 00:46:19,680
i cannot understand why they haven't

1372
00:46:21,910 --> 00:46:20,480
published

1373
00:46:23,270 --> 00:46:21,920
why they didn't publish the photograph

1374
00:46:24,230 --> 00:46:23,280
at the time and there's nothing in the

1375
00:46:27,109 --> 00:46:24,240
files

1376
00:46:28,550 --> 00:46:27,119
to suggest to give us any reason as to

1377
00:46:30,710 --> 00:46:28,560
as to what happened

1378
00:46:31,829 --> 00:46:30,720
which does strike me as extremely

1379
00:46:33,589 --> 00:46:31,839
suspicious

1380
00:46:35,670 --> 00:46:33,599
and when i was running the national

1381
00:46:37,270 --> 00:46:35,680
archives project that led to the release

1382
00:46:41,030 --> 00:46:37,280
of all the files including

1383
00:46:42,069 --> 00:46:41,040
um the what remains of the file on this

1384
00:46:43,829 --> 00:46:42,079
case

1385
00:46:45,829 --> 00:46:43,839
i can't i got in touch with the daily

1386
00:46:48,069 --> 00:46:45,839
record and i spoke to the

1387
00:46:49,829 --> 00:46:48,079
the the um the picture editor the news

1388
00:46:50,950 --> 00:46:49,839
editor at that time that i was doing

1389
00:46:54,150 --> 00:46:50,960
this

1390
00:46:54,950 --> 00:46:54,160
files project which was 2009. 20 years

1391
00:46:57,750 --> 00:46:54,960
after the

1392
00:46:58,870 --> 00:46:57,760
case they could not remember the

1393
00:47:00,710 --> 00:46:58,880
incident at all

1394
00:47:03,109 --> 00:47:00,720
they had no knowledge no knowledge of it

1395
00:47:07,030 --> 00:47:03,119
at all and the editor at the time

1396
00:47:10,309 --> 00:47:07,040
um a guy called endless he died in

1397
00:47:12,870 --> 00:47:10,319
2015 unfortunately so if he was

1398
00:47:14,470 --> 00:47:12,880
asked by not to publish the the

1399
00:47:15,990 --> 00:47:14,480
photographs by the minister of defense

1400
00:47:18,309 --> 00:47:16,000
unfortunately he's no longer with us so

1401
00:47:19,030 --> 00:47:18,319
we can't we can't speak to the editor at

1402
00:47:21,349 --> 00:47:19,040
the time

1403
00:47:22,069 --> 00:47:21,359
but something strange went on and the

1404
00:47:25,510 --> 00:47:22,079
thing is

1405
00:47:26,470 --> 00:47:25,520
around 1990 the media was rife with

1406
00:47:30,150 --> 00:47:26,480
speculation

1407
00:47:32,309 --> 00:47:30,160
about um sightings of what seemed to be

1408
00:47:34,549 --> 00:47:32,319
a black project aircraft of some kind

1409
00:47:36,069 --> 00:47:34,559
that was flying from a base called raf

1410
00:47:38,470 --> 00:47:36,079
macrohanish

1411
00:47:40,230 --> 00:47:38,480
um on the west coast northwest coast of

1412
00:47:42,470 --> 00:47:40,240
scotland and there's a lot of evidence

1413
00:47:45,750 --> 00:47:42,480
that there was a black project aircraft

1414
00:47:47,349 --> 00:47:45,760
um the united states air force or cia

1415
00:47:49,109 --> 00:47:47,359
project that was flying from there i

1416
00:47:51,109 --> 00:47:49,119
very much suspect that

1417
00:47:53,589 --> 00:47:51,119
the thing that was photographed was some

1418
00:47:56,309 --> 00:47:53,599
kind of secret military aircraft

1419
00:47:58,150 --> 00:47:56,319
and that explains the reluctance of the

1420
00:48:00,950 --> 00:47:58,160
minister of defense to

1421
00:48:02,710 --> 00:48:00,960
say anything about this case at all they

1422
00:48:04,309 --> 00:48:02,720
claim that they don't

1423
00:48:06,630 --> 00:48:04,319
they don't have any records on it they

1424
00:48:07,990 --> 00:48:06,640
don't have the the original photographs

1425
00:48:09,670 --> 00:48:08,000
that they return them to the

1426
00:48:11,190 --> 00:48:09,680
photographers i found this difficult to

1427
00:48:13,030 --> 00:48:11,200
believe because

1428
00:48:14,630 --> 00:48:13,040
in the files there is there is a top

1429
00:48:17,589 --> 00:48:14,640
secret um

1430
00:48:19,829 --> 00:48:17,599
tasking 2d i-55 two years after the

1431
00:48:22,390 --> 00:48:19,839
incident saying can we obtain

1432
00:48:23,589 --> 00:48:22,400
detailed line drawings of these of the

1433
00:48:26,870 --> 00:48:23,599
object in these

1434
00:48:28,870 --> 00:48:26,880
in these images and then the files just

1435
00:48:30,549 --> 00:48:28,880
peter out there's nothing more about it

1436
00:48:34,309 --> 00:48:30,559
quite clearly they've been weeded

1437
00:48:35,510 --> 00:48:34,319
and whatever um whatever there was on

1438
00:48:38,150 --> 00:48:35,520
file on this subject

1439
00:48:39,829 --> 00:48:38,160
has is being kept somewhere else and is

1440
00:48:40,790 --> 00:48:39,839
being put into a different category that

1441
00:48:42,150 --> 00:48:40,800
is

1442
00:48:43,829 --> 00:48:42,160
you can't reach through freedom of

1443
00:48:47,109 --> 00:48:43,839
information and

1444
00:48:48,549 --> 00:48:47,119
um the the most recent files that um i

1445
00:48:51,829 --> 00:48:48,559
was that i managed to

1446
00:48:52,230 --> 00:48:51,839
arrange to get copies of di-55 files by

1447
00:49:02,549 --> 00:48:52,240
the

1448
00:49:05,750 --> 00:49:02,559
report

1449
00:49:08,870 --> 00:49:05,760
in his papers he says that a d notice

1450
00:49:11,750 --> 00:49:08,880
was issued on this subject

1451
00:49:12,390 --> 00:49:11,760
in the 1990s this is on the what he

1452
00:49:15,510 --> 00:49:12,400
calls the

1453
00:49:16,390 --> 00:49:15,520
astra stroke aurora project now the

1454
00:49:19,030 --> 00:49:16,400
aurora

1455
00:49:20,390 --> 00:49:19,040
was this fabled hypersonic spy plane

1456
00:49:22,630 --> 00:49:20,400
that we were told

1457
00:49:26,230 --> 00:49:22,640
back in the 90s was being worked on and

1458
00:49:29,030 --> 00:49:26,240
was was flying around the globe

1459
00:49:29,990 --> 00:49:29,040
never appeared is it whether it exists

1460
00:49:32,150 --> 00:49:30,000
or we don't know

1461
00:49:33,109 --> 00:49:32,160
but it could be some kind of code name

1462
00:49:34,790 --> 00:49:33,119
for some other

1463
00:49:36,309 --> 00:49:34,800
like project aircraft that's still in

1464
00:49:38,790 --> 00:49:36,319
operation as far as we

1465
00:49:41,190 --> 00:49:38,800
know yeah oh yeah and that particular

1466
00:49:44,069 --> 00:49:41,200
one i would say that's most likely

1467
00:49:45,510 --> 00:49:44,079
you know very very well could be like uh

1468
00:49:46,390 --> 00:49:45,520
like you say there's a lot of black

1469
00:49:47,910 --> 00:49:46,400
projects and

1470
00:49:49,750 --> 00:49:47,920
you know secret projects that we'll

1471
00:49:52,710 --> 00:49:49,760
never know yeah

1472
00:49:53,430 --> 00:49:52,720
exactly what um this is why this is why

1473
00:49:54,870 --> 00:49:53,440
i remain

1474
00:49:56,390 --> 00:49:54,880
interested in this subject there's a lot

1475
00:49:56,790 --> 00:49:56,400
of nonsense and there's a lot of people

1476
00:49:59,430 --> 00:49:56,800
seeing

1477
00:49:59,829 --> 00:49:59,440
ordinary things but yeah but it's almost

1478
00:50:04,150 --> 00:49:59,839
like

1479
00:50:06,870 --> 00:50:04,160
you know sort of panning for gold yes

1480
00:50:07,510 --> 00:50:06,880
there's a lot of grit in in japan but

1481
00:50:09,349 --> 00:50:07,520
then

1482
00:50:11,030 --> 00:50:09,359
this is what this this is why i'm a

1483
00:50:11,910 --> 00:50:11,040
journalist because this is what you do

1484
00:50:14,390 --> 00:50:11,920
you sort of

1485
00:50:15,829 --> 00:50:14,400
you deal with a lot of people a lot of

1486
00:50:16,710 --> 00:50:15,839
people telling you stories a lot of

1487
00:50:18,549 --> 00:50:16,720
which turn out

1488
00:50:20,309 --> 00:50:18,559
to be dead ends but then very

1489
00:50:23,670 --> 00:50:20,319
occasionally you'll find that little

1490
00:50:26,950 --> 00:50:23,680
nugget of gold hidden away yeah

1491
00:50:29,190 --> 00:50:26,960
yeah very interesting now uh again i'm

1492
00:50:31,589 --> 00:50:29,200
bringing nick pope up only because i

1493
00:50:33,829 --> 00:50:31,599
saw an article he wrote maybe a month or

1494
00:50:37,349 --> 00:50:33,839
two ago where he was disappointed

1495
00:50:38,790 --> 00:50:37,359
about the um some uh documents were not

1496
00:50:39,750 --> 00:50:38,800
going to be released that were supposed

1497
00:50:41,670 --> 00:50:39,760
to be released

1498
00:50:43,349 --> 00:50:41,680
what was that about well this this is

1499
00:50:44,230 --> 00:50:43,359
this is what nick pope does all the time

1500
00:50:47,030 --> 00:50:44,240
you see because

1501
00:50:49,430 --> 00:50:47,040
that that story was based upon some

1502
00:50:52,549 --> 00:50:49,440
research that i've been involved in

1503
00:50:54,069 --> 00:50:52,559
in that the file on the calvin case

1504
00:50:57,349 --> 00:50:54,079
the one we've just been talking about

1505
00:51:00,230 --> 00:50:57,359
yeah the original file has the names

1506
00:51:01,910 --> 00:51:00,240
of the photographers in it right now

1507
00:51:03,829 --> 00:51:01,920
what is the best way to solve this

1508
00:51:05,990 --> 00:51:03,839
mystery is to find out who the two guys

1509
00:51:07,990 --> 00:51:06,000
were who took the photograph

1510
00:51:09,829 --> 00:51:08,000
okay so although all the british

1511
00:51:12,870 --> 00:51:09,839
minister defense ufo files

1512
00:51:14,950 --> 00:51:12,880
have been released they're redacted so

1513
00:51:17,270 --> 00:51:14,960
all the names and addresses of the

1514
00:51:20,470 --> 00:51:17,280
witnesses have been removed

1515
00:51:21,990 --> 00:51:20,480
now before 2005 those files were

1516
00:51:23,829 --> 00:51:22,000
released after 30 years

1517
00:51:26,150 --> 00:51:23,839
under the old system that we had in the

1518
00:51:27,910 --> 00:51:26,160
uk bizarrely now

1519
00:51:29,430 --> 00:51:27,920
under the so-called freedom of

1520
00:51:31,589 --> 00:51:29,440
information act

1521
00:51:33,109 --> 00:51:31,599
rather than the original files with all

1522
00:51:34,950 --> 00:51:33,119
the names and addresses of people being

1523
00:51:36,549 --> 00:51:34,960
released after 30 years as they were up

1524
00:51:38,549 --> 00:51:36,559
to 2005

1525
00:51:41,030 --> 00:51:38,559
they have they are now subject to

1526
00:51:43,349 --> 00:51:41,040
something known as data protection

1527
00:51:44,230 --> 00:51:43,359
so because they are people's personal um

1528
00:51:46,069 --> 00:51:44,240
details

1529
00:51:48,470 --> 00:51:46,079
the ministry of defense in its wisdom

1530
00:51:50,470 --> 00:51:48,480
has decided to extend the closure period

1531
00:51:53,589 --> 00:51:50,480
of the file from 30 years

1532
00:51:56,150 --> 00:51:53,599
to 82 years so

1533
00:51:57,670 --> 00:51:56,160
we will not we will never not while i'm

1534
00:51:59,670 --> 00:51:57,680
alive not while you're alive

1535
00:52:01,349 --> 00:51:59,680
unfortunately martin discover who these

1536
00:52:03,589 --> 00:52:01,359
two men are

1537
00:52:04,390 --> 00:52:03,599
but can that can that possibly be

1538
00:52:06,470 --> 00:52:04,400
overturned

1539
00:52:08,309 --> 00:52:06,480
something like that yes and that's what

1540
00:52:10,870 --> 00:52:08,319
i'm doing because i've actually

1541
00:52:11,750 --> 00:52:10,880
taken out a legal challenge against the

1542
00:52:13,750 --> 00:52:11,760
mod

1543
00:52:15,190 --> 00:52:13,760
good for you to get this file released

1544
00:52:16,549 --> 00:52:15,200
i've actually gone to the uk's

1545
00:52:19,589 --> 00:52:16,559
information commissioner

1546
00:52:22,390 --> 00:52:19,599
and put in an appeal under the under

1547
00:52:23,829 --> 00:52:22,400
the data protection act to have this um

1548
00:52:25,750 --> 00:52:23,839
case re-examined

1549
00:52:28,549 --> 00:52:25,760
to get to the bottom of this so i did a

1550
00:52:31,670 --> 00:52:28,559
i did i spoke to a journalist about this

1551
00:52:34,150 --> 00:52:31,680
um in the uk about this story

1552
00:52:35,670 --> 00:52:34,160
and he he went off and drafted a story

1553
00:52:36,230 --> 00:52:35,680
based upon this campaign that i was

1554
00:52:37,670 --> 00:52:36,240
reading

1555
00:52:40,870 --> 00:52:37,680
and then the next thing i know there's

1556
00:52:43,910 --> 00:52:40,880
this story about nick pope

1557
00:52:47,670 --> 00:52:43,920
that doesn't mention me he's crazy

1558
00:52:49,910 --> 00:52:47,680
sorry sorry brought it up this is almost

1559
00:52:50,950 --> 00:52:49,920
almost becoming comedy in that i do all

1560
00:52:52,870 --> 00:52:50,960
the hard work

1561
00:52:54,230 --> 00:52:52,880
and then suddenly the the media is

1562
00:52:55,589 --> 00:52:54,240
talking to nick poop and i just think

1563
00:52:57,750 --> 00:52:55,599
hold on a minute

1564
00:52:59,510 --> 00:52:57,760
this this story is something that i'm

1565
00:53:00,790 --> 00:52:59,520
working on wouldn't it be polite to sort

1566
00:53:02,950 --> 00:53:00,800
of ask me

1567
00:53:04,549 --> 00:53:02,960
what i'm doing rather than going to nick

1568
00:53:06,950 --> 00:53:04,559
pope to ask you now

1569
00:53:07,670 --> 00:53:06,960
fair enough nick worked in that office

1570
00:53:09,430 --> 00:53:07,680
he's he's

1571
00:53:11,829 --> 00:53:09,440
he's a is someone that journalist should

1572
00:53:13,510 --> 00:53:11,839
speak to and get a comment from because

1573
00:53:15,349 --> 00:53:13,520
you know he's got something to say about

1574
00:53:16,950 --> 00:53:15,359
this case he worked in that office and

1575
00:53:18,710 --> 00:53:16,960
if you read his book he said that he had

1576
00:53:21,829 --> 00:53:18,720
a big sort of

1577
00:53:23,510 --> 00:53:21,839
photo of it on the back of it yeah his

1578
00:53:25,750 --> 00:53:23,520
boss came in and took it down

1579
00:53:27,430 --> 00:53:25,760
away yeah i remember that fair enough

1580
00:53:28,390 --> 00:53:27,440
yeah he's he's got something to say

1581
00:53:30,549 --> 00:53:28,400
about it but

1582
00:53:31,750 --> 00:53:30,559
it it i just find the whole thing

1583
00:53:33,910 --> 00:53:31,760
comedic

1584
00:53:35,670 --> 00:53:33,920
yeah you know it's like if you read that

1585
00:53:37,829 --> 00:53:35,680
story you wouldn't know

1586
00:53:39,270 --> 00:53:37,839
what had actually prompted the story in

1587
00:53:40,549 --> 00:53:39,280
the first place

1588
00:53:42,390 --> 00:53:40,559
you know the the fact that the

1589
00:53:45,510 --> 00:53:42,400
information commissioner was was

1590
00:53:46,950 --> 00:53:45,520
was considering a legal challenge on the

1591
00:53:48,549 --> 00:53:46,960
retention of these names

1592
00:53:51,030 --> 00:53:48,559
you wouldn't know that reading the story

1593
00:53:51,510 --> 00:53:51,040
so when the this is me as a journalist

1594
00:53:53,349 --> 00:53:51,520
talking

1595
00:53:55,030 --> 00:53:53,359
these things just get blown out of all

1596
00:53:57,670 --> 00:53:55,040
proportion sure

1597
00:53:59,510 --> 00:53:57,680
it's almost like it's like a role once

1598
00:54:01,190 --> 00:53:59,520
something gets into the media

1599
00:54:03,430 --> 00:54:01,200
you can you can't actually stop it

1600
00:54:05,349 --> 00:54:03,440
because it starts reproducing itself

1601
00:54:08,390 --> 00:54:05,359
online and in social media especially

1602
00:54:09,990 --> 00:54:08,400
especially the tabloids

1603
00:54:11,670 --> 00:54:10,000
out there especially i hate to say it

1604
00:54:15,030 --> 00:54:11,680
but the british tabloids are

1605
00:54:17,589 --> 00:54:15,040
can be pretty worse far worse yeah

1606
00:54:19,270 --> 00:54:17,599
they've lost lost all sense of reality i

1607
00:54:20,069 --> 00:54:19,280
mean this this is what troubles me about

1608
00:54:21,990 --> 00:54:20,079
this subject

1609
00:54:24,390 --> 00:54:22,000
and interests me at the same time is

1610
00:54:25,990 --> 00:54:24,400
that you you can't have a story on ufos

1611
00:54:27,190 --> 00:54:26,000
without having a picture of a classic

1612
00:54:29,589 --> 00:54:27,200
flying saucer

1613
00:54:30,309 --> 00:54:29,599
and a picture of an alien with a big big

1614
00:54:33,829 --> 00:54:30,319
head

1615
00:54:36,630 --> 00:54:33,839
black eyes so so that exists right here

1616
00:54:40,150 --> 00:54:36,640
yeah exactly yeah well someone made that

1617
00:54:43,910 --> 00:54:42,870
i didn't make it you get this is what

1618
00:54:46,870 --> 00:54:43,920
creates

1619
00:54:48,230 --> 00:54:46,880
yeah ufology and then people have

1620
00:54:49,910 --> 00:54:48,240
experiences

1621
00:54:52,470 --> 00:54:49,920
and the only way they can interpret them

1622
00:54:55,109 --> 00:54:52,480
is in the context of the legend the myth

1623
00:54:56,950 --> 00:54:55,119
of ufology and when you actually pair

1624
00:54:58,630 --> 00:54:56,960
down the experiences themselves i mean

1625
00:54:59,910 --> 00:54:58,640
if you talk to john burrows for instance

1626
00:55:03,109 --> 00:54:59,920
he saw

1627
00:55:04,950 --> 00:55:03,119
some kind of inexplicable life form

1628
00:55:07,030 --> 00:55:04,960
and this this is um this is the thing

1629
00:55:09,190 --> 00:55:07,040
about uap is an unidentified aerial

1630
00:55:11,510 --> 00:55:09,200
phenomena which is what the military did

1631
00:55:12,470 --> 00:55:11,520
prefer to call these things now yeah you

1632
00:55:14,549 --> 00:55:12,480
know um

1633
00:55:15,829 --> 00:55:14,559
they're not objects they are

1634
00:55:18,470 --> 00:55:15,839
inexplicable

1635
00:55:19,030 --> 00:55:18,480
things you know they may or may not

1636
00:55:21,030 --> 00:55:19,040
exist

1637
00:55:22,230 --> 00:55:21,040
the the ones that can't be explained who

1638
00:55:24,470 --> 00:55:22,240
knows they are

1639
00:55:25,430 --> 00:55:24,480
i don't know some kind of natural energy

1640
00:55:28,150 --> 00:55:25,440
or something

1641
00:55:29,270 --> 00:55:28,160
that has always been here that people

1642
00:55:31,349 --> 00:55:29,280
have been seeing for

1643
00:55:33,270 --> 00:55:31,359
ever since there's been human beings and

1644
00:55:34,309 --> 00:55:33,280
this is what i find the most interesting

1645
00:55:37,589 --> 00:55:34,319
aspect of it

1646
00:55:41,030 --> 00:55:37,599
yeah i i do too it makes total sense

1647
00:55:44,069 --> 00:55:41,040
what you just said because of um

1648
00:55:47,349 --> 00:55:44,079
you know you you think of the odds of

1649
00:55:48,230 --> 00:55:47,359
of uh societies from wherever they're

1650
00:55:50,870 --> 00:55:48,240
from

1651
00:55:51,750 --> 00:55:50,880
being exactly at the same time we are in

1652
00:55:55,030 --> 00:55:51,760
development

1653
00:55:58,470 --> 00:55:55,040
um it's just kind of impossible

1654
00:56:01,030 --> 00:55:58,480
with uh to line up correctly

1655
00:56:02,069 --> 00:56:01,040
so i mean sure it makes sense that if a

1656
00:56:04,470 --> 00:56:02,079
million years ago or

1657
00:56:06,390 --> 00:56:04,480
50 000 years ago if we were being

1658
00:56:07,270 --> 00:56:06,400
visited by whoever we're being visited

1659
00:56:09,430 --> 00:56:07,280
by now

1660
00:56:10,630 --> 00:56:09,440
we would have been visited by then it

1661
00:56:12,549 --> 00:56:10,640
just makes total sense

1662
00:56:14,230 --> 00:56:12,559
to me you know the only thing wrong with

1663
00:56:15,190 --> 00:56:14,240
today's show is we don't have enough

1664
00:56:18,230 --> 00:56:15,200
time

1665
00:56:21,430 --> 00:56:18,240
really i felt like this uh this hour has

1666
00:56:23,190 --> 00:56:21,440
just flown by and uh i'm hoping i

1667
00:56:25,109 --> 00:56:23,200
i i'm hoping that you'll tell me you're

1668
00:56:27,190 --> 00:56:25,119
a night owl and you can't sleep at night

1669
00:56:28,150 --> 00:56:27,200
and want to do the show live sometime

1670
00:56:30,069 --> 00:56:28,160
because uh

1671
00:56:31,589 --> 00:56:30,079
i'm happy to come back any time you want

1672
00:56:33,750 --> 00:56:31,599
martin i've really enjoyed it

1673
00:56:35,510 --> 00:56:33,760
yeah yeah and i would i would say that

1674
00:56:37,589 --> 00:56:35,520
although i may come across as as you

1675
00:56:39,990 --> 00:56:37,599
know some kind of horrible debunker

1676
00:56:41,750 --> 00:56:40,000
a lot of the time i'm playing devil's

1677
00:56:43,670 --> 00:56:41,760
advocate i'm trying to provoke people

1678
00:56:46,390 --> 00:56:43,680
i'm trying to get them to think

1679
00:56:47,589 --> 00:56:46,400
well i will tell you a little comment

1680
00:56:49,910 --> 00:56:47,599
there was a uh

1681
00:56:51,430 --> 00:56:49,920
uh comment and uh actually there's one

1682
00:56:53,430 --> 00:56:51,440
i'd like to say here

1683
00:56:55,270 --> 00:56:53,440
to uh but there was a comment earlier

1684
00:56:58,150 --> 00:56:55,280
said someone said i really like this guy

1685
00:56:59,990 --> 00:56:58,160
because he says both sides of it

1686
00:57:01,670 --> 00:57:00,000
and this is something i was going to ask

1687
00:57:02,470 --> 00:57:01,680
you real quickly we have a couple of

1688
00:57:04,309 --> 00:57:02,480
minutes

1689
00:57:06,710 --> 00:57:04,319
would it i'll say what's the most

1690
00:57:08,710 --> 00:57:06,720
compelling this is uh by uh

1691
00:57:10,950 --> 00:57:08,720
luis just sent this what's the do you

1692
00:57:14,150 --> 00:57:10,960
think is the most compelling

1693
00:57:14,710 --> 00:57:14,160
case that you know of well i can i can

1694
00:57:16,789 --> 00:57:14,720
answer

1695
00:57:18,309 --> 00:57:16,799
i've been asked this so many times and

1696
00:57:19,430 --> 00:57:18,319
there's so many cases that i think are

1697
00:57:21,190 --> 00:57:19,440
really compelling it's just

1698
00:57:23,990 --> 00:57:21,200
unfortunately the ones that i think are

1699
00:57:25,750 --> 00:57:24,000
my favorites tend to be single witness

1700
00:57:27,910 --> 00:57:25,760
cases and there was one um there was an

1701
00:57:28,549 --> 00:57:27,920
raf test pilot that i interviewed who

1702
00:57:32,870 --> 00:57:28,559
died

1703
00:57:35,990 --> 00:57:32,880
sadly age um 85 i think he was and he

1704
00:57:38,069 --> 00:57:36,000
had the most amazing experience in 1950

1705
00:57:40,230 --> 00:57:38,079
and this was in the report that i

1706
00:57:42,309 --> 00:57:40,240
managed to uncover that was um that was

1707
00:57:44,870 --> 00:57:42,319
used to brief winston churchill

1708
00:57:47,270 --> 00:57:44,880
and it was his sighting at farnborough

1709
00:57:48,470 --> 00:57:47,280
and he was a test pilot and he saw this

1710
00:57:50,710 --> 00:57:48,480
incredible

1711
00:57:52,470 --> 00:57:50,720
object he was on his own unfortunately

1712
00:57:53,349 --> 00:57:52,480
at the time and this came down over the

1713
00:57:57,190 --> 00:57:53,359
airfield

1714
00:57:59,430 --> 00:57:57,200
it was spinning around and it was it

1715
00:58:01,109 --> 00:57:59,440
whatever it was it was inexplicable it

1716
00:58:02,710 --> 00:58:01,119
was definitely not a lighthouse i think

1717
00:58:05,510 --> 00:58:02,720
we can say that before

1718
00:58:07,670 --> 00:58:05,520
and and i remember meeting him i

1719
00:58:09,030 --> 00:58:07,680
interviewed him in 2001 he lived he

1720
00:58:12,309 --> 00:58:09,040
lived in north carolina

1721
00:58:13,349 --> 00:58:12,319
in his last few years and he returned to

1722
00:58:15,109 --> 00:58:13,359
out to london

1723
00:58:16,630 --> 00:58:15,119
to do an interview with me at the raf

1724
00:58:17,910 --> 00:58:16,640
club in piccadilly and i've got his

1725
00:58:21,430 --> 00:58:17,920
story on um

1726
00:58:23,190 --> 00:58:21,440
on tape and honestly he saw something

1727
00:58:26,150 --> 00:58:23,200
otherworldly there's no there's no two

1728
00:58:28,950 --> 00:58:26,160
ways about it but unfortunately

1729
00:58:29,750 --> 00:58:28,960
he he was on his own at the time he did

1730
00:58:33,109 --> 00:58:29,760
that

1731
00:58:35,349 --> 00:58:33,119
to listen to or is it

1732
00:58:36,230 --> 00:58:35,359
yeah yeah if if if people who are

1733
00:58:37,750 --> 00:58:36,240
listening want to go

1734
00:58:40,390 --> 00:58:37,760
want to find out more about it his name

1735
00:58:43,030 --> 00:58:40,400
is stan hubbard um

1736
00:58:46,230 --> 00:58:43,040
he was a test pilot for the raf um his

1737
00:58:48,150 --> 00:58:46,240
report was featured in the report by the

1738
00:58:50,309 --> 00:58:48,160
ministry of defense's flying saucer

1739
00:58:52,390 --> 00:58:50,319
working party that was um

1740
00:58:54,870 --> 00:58:52,400
published in secretly i mean i managed

1741
00:58:56,710 --> 00:58:54,880
to get a copy of this in 2001

1742
00:58:58,390 --> 00:58:56,720
um and it was released to the media at

1743
00:59:00,230 --> 00:58:58,400
the time um

1744
00:59:02,470 --> 00:59:00,240
his story is in there and they dismiss

1745
00:59:04,950 --> 00:59:02,480
it as an optical illusion

1746
00:59:06,230 --> 00:59:04,960
how about that what he saw but again

1747
00:59:08,390 --> 00:59:06,240
it's interesting just just

1748
00:59:10,549 --> 00:59:08,400
just to think that his story was was

1749
00:59:12,470 --> 00:59:10,559
read by winston churchill because this

1750
00:59:14,309 --> 00:59:12,480
this um this report was was used to

1751
00:59:16,630 --> 00:59:14,319
brief him following the worship the

1752
00:59:17,109 --> 00:59:16,640
washington dc sightings in 1952 and he

1753
00:59:18,309 --> 00:59:17,119
said

1754
00:59:20,309 --> 00:59:18,319
what's all this stuff about flying

1755
00:59:22,309 --> 00:59:20,319
sources and they they

1756
00:59:23,670 --> 00:59:22,319
produced this report that he read that's

1757
00:59:26,470 --> 00:59:23,680
got this guy's

1758
00:59:27,589 --> 00:59:26,480
experience in there wow i wish we had

1759
00:59:29,510 --> 00:59:27,599
much more time to talk

1760
00:59:30,789 --> 00:59:29,520
but real quickly your website for people

1761
00:59:32,710 --> 00:59:30,799
your your blog site

1762
00:59:33,990 --> 00:59:32,720
it's a great website by the way thank

1763
00:59:36,390 --> 00:59:34,000
you yeah it's um

1764
00:59:38,390 --> 00:59:36,400
it's just it's a work in progress and a

1765
00:59:39,270 --> 00:59:38,400
bit i'll give you a bit of an exclusive

1766
00:59:41,990 --> 00:59:39,280
here i'm going to

1767
00:59:43,270 --> 00:59:42,000
add a new section to the website that

1768
00:59:46,150 --> 00:59:43,280
covers radar

1769
00:59:48,069 --> 00:59:46,160
ufos sometime in the new year because

1770
00:59:49,910 --> 00:59:48,079
i'm i'm going to publish some

1771
00:59:51,190 --> 00:59:49,920
new um some new information i've got

1772
00:59:53,750 --> 00:59:51,200
about a uh

1773
00:59:54,870 --> 00:59:53,760
a ufo that was tracked in space by the

1774
00:59:57,030 --> 00:59:54,880
ballistic missile

1775
00:59:59,990 --> 00:59:57,040
weapon system in the u.s wondered about

1776
01:00:00,710 --> 01:00:00,000
that so i've got some new a new story

1777
01:00:02,710 --> 01:00:00,720
that i'm gonna

1778
01:00:04,230 --> 01:00:02,720
i'm gonna publish uh exclusively

1779
01:00:06,430 --> 01:00:04,240
sometime in the new year so if you keep

1780
01:00:08,630 --> 01:00:06,440
watching my website

1781
01:00:12,829 --> 01:00:08,640
drdavidcloud.com it'll be there

1782
01:00:15,990 --> 01:00:14,630
drdavidclark.co.uk very good and that's

1783
01:00:17,670 --> 01:00:16,000
also in the show notes

1784
01:00:19,349 --> 01:00:17,680
as well thank you so much david really

1785
01:00:20,230 --> 01:00:19,359
it's been a pleasure thank you for

1786
01:00:23,109 --> 01:00:20,240
inviting me

1787
01:00:24,069 --> 01:00:23,119
all right okay everyone that's uh that's

1788
01:00:26,390 --> 01:00:24,079
it for the show

1789
01:00:27,829 --> 01:00:26,400
thank you so much for listening now as

1790
01:00:29,510 --> 01:00:27,839
far as youtube

1791
01:00:32,309 --> 01:00:29,520
the next time you'll see me here on

1792
01:00:35,349 --> 01:00:32,319
youtube is uh december 1st

1793
01:00:37,990 --> 01:00:35,359
and that's with uh robert powell so

1794
01:00:39,910 --> 01:00:38,000
check that out we'll be back and thanks

1795
01:00:43,180 --> 01:00:39,920
so much for listening everyone

1796
01:00:54,829 --> 01:00:43,190
and remember to keep your eyes to the